Hello, I have never winter camped, but am fairly rugged and am very interested in trying it out. I have seen much discussion around here about using a stove and wood tent. While I am sure this is a good way to go, I would prefer a more compact approach which would not involve either of these bulky items.

So my question is: how plausible is winter camping around Minnesota and specifically BWCA without these two items. I am willing to invest in down sleeping bag rated to a really low temperature.

Do share your expertise.

The hot tent just seem like cheating to me.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that winter camp the BWCA without a hot tent, I myself have not camped in a hot tent. I have camped without one but not in the BWCA. I live in central WI and have only winter camped here by backpack.
First of all I've been in construction all my life so I have learned over the years how to dress and handle the cold. I also bought a few books to help educate my self further. Those books are, Backpacker Winter Hiking & Camping by Michael Lanza, Surviving Cold Weather by Greg Davenport, Secrets of Warmth for Compfort or Survival by Hal Weiss and I also bought a book on Snowshoeing but have not yet tried that yet do to low snow fall.
I did a practise night at home in the back yard first just to make sure it was somthing I could handle. You DO NOT want to exsperiment in the wildernes far from security.
There is alot of great high tech clothing out there like Under Armor and some old reliables like wool.
When I backpack in the winter I can travel rather lite because so far I have camped on the Ice Age trail where I use a three sided wood shelter, so I do not need my own tent. I use a -15 bag and I have a felt insert bag if I want to add about 10 degrees to that. The hard thing for me was keeping my head out of the bag at night, otherwise the opening of your bag will have alot of frost build-up.
I am hoping to get upto the BWCA to winter camp sometime soon just because I love it up there so much.
Good luck and have fun, its a totaly different world in the winter.

I'd be interested in hearing others' experiences with this as well. I'm interested in getting into more winter camping, and it seems as though you can go the traditional hot-tent way with a lot of wool clothing and a cotton tent and stove, or the cold- or no-tent way with a regular campfire or even just a stove. After the last winter trip that I took (big campfires, no tent, synthetic clothing and sleeping bag) all my clothes had pinholes and melted spots from flying embers - drying out my wool boot liners over the fire was a slow, smoky process, and I found myself standing a lot closer than I would have in August. In the hot tent you can hang all your damp stuff up to dry overnight in the heat of the peak. I'm not sure that I want to make the investment in a hot tent and stove just yet (for one thing, I'll be going solo more often than not), but I don't want to wreck a set of fleece gear every trip. The benefit of the fleece stuff was that it dried out with virtually no effort and was light.

If I switched to wool for my insulation/outerwear, would I end up devoting a lot of time to drying it out over a campfire? Let's assume that I'm pretty good at managing layers so that I'm not getting drenched with sweat- just normal snow and sweat damp. The alternative as I see it is to find a bunch of cheap fleece and poly wind pants at the Goodwill and just let it get trashed again, or use a stove and forego drying out the boot liners (vapor barrier socks perhaps).

Any input or suggestions would be appreciated.

never winter camped, but figured id learn alot here.

so, if you (vlado4) consider hot tenting cheating....would building a campfire also be considered the same?

Jan

People winter camp without wall tents all the time, make sure you have a GOOD! sleeping bag, rated to as cold as possible, then buy a nice thick fleece liner for it. Then buy a closed cell foam sleeping pad, and then buy another one.

When you sleep, set your tent up on land, not on the ice.

Don't use campsites, they suck in the winter. Use thick forest, lots of wind protection.

Make walls of snow around the tent.

Sleep in thick full underwear, hat, socks, gloves, etc.

Remember, we get a couple nights of 45 below every year, if it's going to be that cold... Don't go.

Of course, if you use a wall tent, you don't have to worry about any of that.

I don't believe there is such a thing as cheating when it comes to winter camping where you have low temps and severe weather conditions to contend with. I have camped in a three sided shelter with and without a fire, in a three season tent with and without a fire. My fires were not all night fires for warmth but rather for cooking and recreation. It's all about staying as comfortable as possible with what you have. The American Indian had a well designed system for surviving winters, a system still copied today. If you ever get a chance to look at a real tipi its amazing how well thought out its design is.
I hope to have the money to invest on hot tenting myself some day, it would be a very practicable way to enjoy the winter.

I agree that a tent really isn't that necessary when winter camping. It is nice to keep off the snow if it snows out but you must have plenty of ventilation to keep moisture to a minimum. Too much condensation will build frost on the inside of your tent and it will snow inside. I have just slept used a big tarp, then closed cell pad, then sleeping bag winter camping and been just fine. Last year I used my Eureka Timberline.

Trygve and others summed it up very well!

I've gone cold-camping the past couple years (maybe Soledad will chime in... we went together once).

I cold-camp because I can't afford a good tent/stove.... yet. Once I get a good hot tent, you won't catch me cold-camping again... its brutal. Last year it was -20* in the mornings.

I don't use any tent... figure a regular 3-season tent is not contributing anything and I don't happen to own a 4-season (or desire to rent one). I just use a cheap old $8 tarp from Walmart. I've wanted to build up snow structure, but the first year we had sugar snow that would not pack at all and last year, well, there just was very, very little snow (didn't even bring the snowshoes).

I camp on land, not at a campsite. As Trygve said, back in thick forest. I rig the tarp low to the ground and then pile snow all around the edges except for the entrance - keeps wind out and snow is good insulation.

At least 2 closed cell pads. And then I usually bring my Thermarest and put it partly inflated on top of the pads. The Thermarest provides no insulative value... but adds a little comfort. You need closed-cell foam for insulation from the cold ground... lots of it!

I have a Mountain Hardwear 0* bag. I then use my 20* bag as a quilt. Last year (when it was really cold) I also brought a real heavy quilt my mom had made out of old denim jeans.

I sleep in polar-weight long-johns. And gloves. And down booties. And a thick balaclava. I pile up any extra packs and clothes around my head. Pull a quilt over my head to make a little tent to warm my breath - breathing cold air all night is a drag.

Pee bottle, of course.

Condensation forms on the tarp and quilts. I try to air out the bags or quilt in the sun during the day if possible.

When cold-camping, you have to be extremely careful about sweating. Once your clothes are wet, they are no good. Did not adjust my layers quick enough during a 6 mi trek last year and got my base layer soaked. Fortunately, I had an extra pair - as soon as I took off the sweaty ones, they pretty much froze up.

I used my tarp for cover late last winter for a night. Only got down to 10 that night. I mainly wanted it for cover because it snowed a little. Zero degree bag with longjohns and wool hat was perfect sleeping.

CB

Here are some pics of a couple tarp setups and my tent from last year.
It was -10 or lower when those tarps were used. (Buck Mustard setup the blue one).

Hey Buck Mustard, did you camp last year? when and where did you go? I thought about getting a hold of you for another president's day trip, but I wasn't able to go until March. It was lot warmer too ;)

We camped in Feb... some weekend when it was really cold. Two nights on Caribou (east one) and day-hiked to Johnson Falls. Just me and my uncle.

I have winter camped several times in bwca in Feb and never used a stove or hot tent. I use to use a tent but have now switched to using snow shelters- they are much warmer. I even helped guide a group of teen girls for a weekend of winter camping in snow shelters.

Canoearoo,

That trip that I went on with Buck Mustard, we found the snow to be very dry and could not figure out a way to pile it up enough to build a shelter. What would you do in that situation? Since we all had either tarps or tents we didn't try too hard to get the snow to cooperate. Maybe with a little more effort we could have figured something out.

I made my first snow shelter/cave last year and found it great to sleep in. It was very quiet and warm. I didn't let it sit long enough before digging the snow out of the mound so it settled a lot my the morning, but I learn as I go.

Well if there is less than 3 inches I bring a tent. But more than 3 you can take fluffy snow and pile it up around you and put a tarp over the top. It takes a lot more work when you have less snow- so bring a tent on those trips might be worth it.

I have never winter camped before, but I love to ice fish. So I have a few questions:

1. Is it possible to use a wall tent to camp and ice fish in the middle of a large lake? or will you freeze to death?
2. Does canvas stop wind enough to make it suitable for this?
3. Would fly over the tent stop the wind?
4. What would you use?

I wouldn't do it, for several reasons.

First off, the ice sucks away heat. If there is a lot of snow, when you drill your fishing hole, water will come up and flood you out. Other moisture problems are also likely. All lakes up here have slush on them, and it moves and changes, if you try to set up your tent in a slush pocket, you're screwed. Wind would be a huge issue, you would need to drill into the ice to anchor the tent down. The tents will stop the wind, but they will also go flying down the lake.

I would set the tent up on shore, and just walk out and fish. Like everyone else.

Eljer,

I picked up a Megamid tent at a REI S&D sale this past weekend. It does not have a floor and I expect that I will be able to have at least one hole drilled within the tent if not two and still sleep comfortably. I can jig while in my sleeping bag and have a dead stick setup in the far corner. I plan on rigging up some sort of rattle reel at night too.

A canvas tent would stop more wind than a nylon tent I would think.

I sure didn't think about the slush factor! Maybe sleeping next to my holes isn't such a good idea!

Yes, people have set their tents up on the ice and gone to sleep, only to wake up in 6 inches of water. It's very dangerous

How do the permanent ice fishing houses not fill with water? OR do they?

I've ice fished that far north. I've only had slush issues in the spring or if there's a warm up.

I have seen them partially fill with water ( a couple of inches to a foot or so ). Heavy snow or lots of houses close together ( weight is the issue ) will cause water to come up thru cracks or holes in the ice. The ice will actually "sag" due to weight. Most times in normal winter conditions this won't happen. But sometimes it does. A thaw may also cause this to occur. When and if it does the owner has big problems. Especially if a hard freeze occurs after water seeps on top of the ice. I have seen it happen here in Wisconsin. And when it does the DNR is watching. Izzy

I've never had it happen to any fish house; not even the big rentals on Mille Lacs.

Our last house sustained a little damnage when it blew across the lake on a very windy day, after a warm spell had melted all the snow.

I've been on ice with a layer of slush sandwiched between the ice layers. Its not fun to fish on, and you cannot drive on it.

then, retrieval normally involves a 30-06 thru the floor. :)

You can camp on the ice, I have done it myself. But when I camp on the ice I do not set my tent up next to a hole because sometimes the water does come up and sometimes it doesn't. With ice houses; most are made to allow for this. After doing both, I prefer camping on shore and walking out to the fish. The reason isn't due to the slush (I don't set my tent up next to a fishing hole) but because that icy wind can be very bitter and it nice to have that break from it with the trees. If it has been a really warm winter there can be at least a foot of such beneath the snow on top of the ice. In this case I would not recommend camping on the ice.

Slush doesn't have anything to do with warm temps, it's caused by the weight of the snow on top of the ice. The snow pressing down causes water to seep up between cracks or holes in the ice. Or course, this all depends on ice thickness and quality.

Usually the worst places for slush is where snow drifts have formed, around points and islands. Or where springs cause the ice to be bad, or have air holes.

Some lakes are famous for slush, like Saganaga and the west end of Moose.

I have done some extensive winter camping, although we have only gone to the BWCA once, all of it in Northern Minnesota. My two kids (ages 13 and 8), and myself, go camping at least one weekend per month, every month of the year.

We use 4 season tents by Eureka. This is the key to winter camping, I think. the tents are set up with a Hi-Low venting, that keeps the moisture condensation to a minimum. During the day the tents will hold the heat and often times the temperturs will rise into the 60's or 70's, even on below zero days. At night the temp is just a few degrees warmer than the outside temps.

a good sleeping bag is also essential. we use 0 degree bags and find them to be sufficient. I don't like mummy bags, but everyone else uses them. I sleep with a hat and scarf, long underwear, socks and a silk t-shirt.

We use rigid plastic cargo sleds to haul our equipment. Tied to each sled is a larg plastic storage bin. All equipment fits in the bin. I had a problem once with a heavy snowfall and disappearing equipment. Eight inches of fluffy snow covers a lot of stuff!

As I said, we have only camped in the bwca once, but we live less than 40 miles away, so all our expeditions are just as cold and sometimes even more remote.

I really enjoy winter camping. In some ways it is easier than camping in the other seasons. Food storage is not an issue. No bugs. No humidity. Water and warmth are your only concerns. A Camelback inside your jacket will stay liquid.

Someday I may go to a heated tent, but that seems like a lot of work and extra weight. For the 3 of us, 4 season tents work well.

see you in the woods?

Mark