I have a Bell Rob Roy and a Bell Magic. I paddle the Rob Roy with the double blade and Magic with a single. I've never tracked actual time or speed differences, only anecdotely, I feel I move at nearly twice the speed with the double blade and am significantly less tired.

I'm curious if anyone's tracked their speed with a gps to see actual differences or if there's been any kind of study out there on it?

I have a Magic and use both, I average about .2-.3 mph faster with the double vs single.

Used both on my Q solo last fall, when I am on big water and want to cover it or dealing with strong wind then the double gets the knod without a doubt.

In a straight tracking hull designed for a seated position a single blade bent is generally the most efficient means of propulsion. If a double moves you faster it is due to the individual's aptitude with the double vs the single. If you move better with a double it's because you paddle at a higher cadence with a double. There is no reason that one cannot achieve the same cadence with a bent other than the limitation of one's technique. If a bent is used with proper technique at the same cadence (and with a similar surface area of paddle) as a double the bent is more efficient because more of the energy is directed towards forward motion. The greater the distance that blade is from the center of the hull the more energy is lost due to lateral motion of the hull (yaw).

If you move faster with a double- more power to you, but it's you, not the paddle. To argue the point is to argue that a heavier tool that diverts more energy to lateral motion somehow manages to magically increase your efficiency. Unlikely.

What Banks said, though I would add that the double - for me at least - is naturally a higher cadence paddle, and my going faster also has to do with simply expending more energy, using muscles from both sides.

It becomes clear when I need rest much sooner with the double.

I recall reading that for the most accomplished paddlers, the double will outstrip your buddy with the single for the first part of a long day, but the single wins that day in the end.

Edit to add: In practical terms - I carry both in my solos. Very occasionally do I reach for the double...last year I think it was only twice, once going through a wind funnel between some islands, and once to make tracks with a storm looming over my shoulder. Short-term only.

Interesting responses...but I think I agree. I just can't figure out why I feel so slow in my Magic compared to the Rob Roy. I like the Magic better, with more space and it's aesthetically a better looking boat. Mine's lighter have the blacklite for the magic and the old fiberlar for the rob roy. And for some reason i'm against using the double blade with the magic. I'll have to try it this spring.

I think your right It has to be technique. I can paddle effortlessly all day with the double in the Rob Roy, but am tired after a few hours with the single.

Another factor is how you use your double. Most canoeists with a double tend toward a low-angle stroke that creates the yaw that Banksiana discussed. Efficient sea kayakers will use a high angle stroke is much more similar to a single blade stroke and they are paddling very narrow boats. And the really serious ones are using wing paddles to pick up a bit more force. You can't do that with a single blade because we use the same blade on both sides.

For me, personally, single when I can, double when I must (WIND!)
Dave

I love a double blade in my solo. For the long hours I travel it allows me to keep my body more balanced in its effort from side to side. I like a single blade in small, narrow water channels, but for open lake paddling, the double blade keeps my body happy. When I use a double blade, I tend toward a high angle stroke (my upper hand comes up above my eyes) and use a much shorter paddle than most people (210-215 cm). It is also much easier to keep a fast, steady cadence with the double blade and I rarely have to make an correction strokes.

I can do similar speeds with my single blade for short distances, but since I don't train that way, I can't keep it up all day.

I did my trip in 22 in a solo because we had 3 in our group. I used a double because wasn’t very good on technique for a single. It was only my second canoe trip and I didn’t have one at home to practice. I didn’t even know how to do a J stroke. I still got smoked by the two in the tandem (with their carbon paddles) but I held on pretty well.
I’ve since learned. But still I did fine.
I have found that it depends on the width of the boat. The Prism I rented was a good 7” narrower than my tandem canoe I have now. It was much easier to get the shaft more vertical for efficiency in the Prism. So some of it can be the boat.
And I get more water in the boat so if it’s cold/early season, I’d rather have the paddle.
In bad weather I'd much rather have the double for more control.

andym: " a high angle stroke is much more similar to a single blade stroke and they are paddling very narrow boats. "

Exactly, hence the performance.

Most people using a double use a low angle and want a paddle wayyy to long. The farther the paddle is away from the side of the boat the more energy goes into turning the boat. The easiest way to get efficient is to use the paddle feathered. I paddle right handed and my right hand does get tired. I try to paddle left handed but the mussel memory is hard to retrain. I only take a double now.

ISRO: "

andym: " a high angle stroke is much more similar to a single blade stroke and they are paddling very narrow boats. "

Exactly, hence the performance."

True. Though it is more difficult to maintain a fast cadence at the high angle.

Also important to clarify that a bent paddle's greater efficiency is gained by using a hit and switch methodology. Corrective strokes or j-strokes squander energy in a center paddled solo.

I always take both and with a bend shaft being my least favorite. Even though it is very efficient.

Comparatively speaking - if im in a group, i'm waiting for the tandems with the Rob Roy and the double blade. In the magic with a single, they're waiting for me.

Banksiana: "

ISRO: "

andym: " a high angle stroke is much more similar to a single blade stroke and they are paddling very narrow boats. "

Exactly, hence the performance."

True. Though it is more difficult to maintain a fast cadence at the high angle.


Also important to clarify that a bent paddle's greater efficiency is gained by using a hit and switch methodology. Corrective strokes or j-strokes squander energy in a center paddled solo."

Totally agree, I hit and switch when leisurely traveling as I find it more relaxing than the double blade.

Double blade @ high angle to cover water or in stiff wind for me.

Speckled: "Interesting responses...but I think I agree. I just can't figure out why I feel so slow in my Magic compared to the Rob Roy. I like the Magic better, with more space and it's aesthetically a better looking boat. Mine's lighter have the blacklite for the magic and the old fiberlar for the rob roy. And for some reason i'm against using the double blade with the magic. I'll have to try it this spring.



"

My controversial comment is that the Magic has never felt very fast to me either. I mean sure it's quite fast and if you sprint you can push it to a high speed. I've owned two Magics. I was so convinced my 15 foot Merlin II was faster that I did 6 days of back to back GPS testing and sure enough (for me) my Merlin II felt more effortless at every speed (they were close around 4.75-5 mph). I kneel in the Merlin and sat in the Magic. To me the Magic feels like it takes significantly more muscle at normal 3.5-4.5 mph cruise speeds than my Merlin II or Advantage. I think it's a fabulous overall boat with lots of great characteristics like handling and seaworthiness and comfort and versatility and looks, I just don't think speed is really what the Magic is all about (for me).

Banksiana: "

ISRO: "

andym: " a high angle stroke is much more similar to a single blade stroke and they are paddling very narrow boats. "

Exactly, hence the performance."

True. Though it is more difficult to maintain a fast cadence at the high angle."

That last bit might depend on personal preference and technique. While it seems sensible that it is easier to maintain a high cadence while not moving the paddle ends up and down, I find that it is easier to maintain a high cadence at high angle. Maybe one factor is that you can use a shorter paddle when paddling at a high angle.

In the end, though, I just like single blades better.

This might sound like an odd answer but this is my take.

Excluding the far north ocean tribes, Native Americans use(d) a single paddle, not a double paddle. They lived by the canoe. There is a reason why they used a single paddle. Additionally, Native Americans used a canoe, not a kayak.

And for me, I grew up with a single paddle in my hands and a canoe. And for this reason, it's what I use.
Tom

Banksiana: "

ISRO: "

andym: " a high angle stroke is much more similar to a single blade stroke and they are paddling very narrow boats. "

Exactly, hence the performance."

True. Though it is more difficult to maintain a fast cadence at the high angle.


Also important to clarify that a bent paddle's greater efficiency is gained by using a hit and switch methodology. Corrective strokes or j-strokes squander energy in a center paddled solo."

Also worth noting that if you paddle with a traditional/kneeling/heeled over style the characteristics of the hull change to favor efficiency with a single paddle (also potentially requiring less corrective strokes) and you no longer need a bent shaft to maximize paddle efficiency because you control the blade right at the water level. :)

There are so many different factors that come into play it's really difficult to make a blanket statement about which is faster/more efficient. The style of canoe you use, your size, the conditions, and your own paddling style and skill all seem to have as much or more influence than your paddle choice.

justpaddlin: "

Speckled: "Interesting responses...but I think I agree. I just can't figure out why I feel so slow in my Magic compared to the Rob Roy. I like the Magic better, with more space and it's aesthetically a better looking boat. Mine's lighter have the blacklite for the magic and the old fiberlar for the rob roy. And for some reason i'm against using the double blade with the magic. I'll have to try it this spring.




"

My controversial comment is that the Magic has never felt very fast to me either. I mean sure it's quite fast and if you sprint you can push it to a high speed. I've owned two Magics. I was so convinced my 15 foot Merlin II was faster that I did 6 days of back to back GPS testing and sure enough (for me) my Merlin II felt more effortless at every speed (they were close around 4.75-5 mph). I kneel in the Merlin and sat in the Magic. To me the Magic feels like it takes significantly more muscle at normal 3.5-4.5 mph cruise speeds than my Merlin II or Advantage. I think it's a fabulous overall boat with lots of great characteristics like handling and seaworthiness and comfort and versatility and looks, I just don't think speed is really what the Magic is all about (for me)."

I wonder why that is. I'm kind of there myself. My understanding is the Rob Roy and Magic were nearly the same hull design from the water down. So I expected a similar feel and similar speed...but, at least from a perception point. I think the Rob Roy is nearly twice as fast.

keth0601: "
Also worth noting that if you paddle with a traditional/kneeling/heeled over style the characteristics of the hull change to favor efficiency with a single paddle (also potentially requiring less corrective strokes) and you no longer need a bent shaft to maximize paddle efficiency because you control the blade right at the water level. :)

There are so many different factors that come into play it's really difficult to make a blanket statement about which is faster/more efficient. The style of canoe you use, your size, the conditions, and your own paddling style and skill all seem to have as much or more influence than your paddle choice.
"

If you paddle kneeling a straight shaft tends to provide better efficiency than a bent (basically the bend in the paddle allows the seated paddler to mimic the angle of entry of a kneeling paddler with a straight shaft).

Corrective strokes from the center of the canoe are particularly inefficient because the paddler does not have the leverage of being in the stern so much more of the forward motion has to be converted to lateral (corrective) motion than would be required were the paddler seated far aft of center.

This conversation makes me want to try a RobRoy!

I've used both paddle types (though not in the those boats). To me the double certainly feels faster but I think that is because it cancels out any sloppy technique I might have when trying hard, and it does it on the very next stroke so it never gets too far off center. I recently did a 40+ mile day paddle and about half way through I really started to feel how the higher cadence bent shaft was easier on my muscles overall and allowed me to keep going at a good clip without over exerting.

Speckled: "

justpaddlin: "

Speckled: "Interesting responses...but I think I agree. I just can't figure out why I feel so slow in my Magic compared to the Rob Roy. I like the Magic better, with more space and it's aesthetically a better looking boat. Mine's lighter have the blacklite for the magic and the old fiberlar for the rob roy. And for some reason i'm against using the double blade with the magic. I'll have to try it this spring.





"

My controversial comment is that the Magic has never felt very fast to me either. I mean sure it's quite fast and if you sprint you can push it to a high speed. I've owned two Magics. I was so convinced my 15 foot Merlin II was faster that I did 6 days of back to back GPS testing and sure enough (for me) my Merlin II felt more effortless at every speed (they were close around 4.75-5 mph). I kneel in the Merlin and sat in the Magic. To me the Magic feels like it takes significantly more muscle at normal 3.5-4.5 mph cruise speeds than my Merlin II or Advantage. I think it's a fabulous overall boat with lots of great characteristics like handling and seaworthiness and comfort and versatility and looks, I just don't think speed is really what the Magic is all about (for me)."

I wonder why that is. I'm kind of there myself. My understanding is the Rob Roy and Magic were nearly the same hull design from the water down. So I expected a similar feel and similar speed...but, at least from a perception point. I think the Rob Roy is nearly twice as fast."

I'm also curious about why the Magic doesn't feel faster.

I think the statements by Bell and Northstar suggest that Rob Roy and Magic share the same hull design. But the Rob Roy is one foot shorter and one inch narrower at the waterline. I have a Placid Rapidfire with almost identical specs as Rob Roy and it also feels twice as fast as Magic subjectively...in fact Rapidfire almost feels like you can't get a workout in it because it's so effortless.

I suggest that you try a Trillium some time if you fit the boat. It's surprisingly quick/fast/effortless.

Argo1: "This conversation makes me want to try a RobRoy!


I've used both paddle types (though not in the those boats). To me the double certainly feels faster but I think that is because it cancels out any sloppy technique I might have when trying hard, and it does it on the very next stroke so it never gets too far off center. I recently did a 40+ mile day paddle and about half way through I really started to feel how the higher cadence bent shaft was easier on my muscles overall and allowed me to keep going at a good clip without over exerting."

40+ miles is quite the day, how did you pull that off?

fadersup: "

Argo1: "This conversation makes me want to try a RobRoy!



I've used both paddle types (though not in the those boats). To me the double certainly feels faster but I think that is because it cancels out any sloppy technique I might have when trying hard, and it does it on the very next stroke so it never gets too far off center. I recently did a 40+ mile day paddle and about half way through I really started to feel how the higher cadence bent shaft was easier on my muscles overall and allowed me to keep going at a good clip without over exerting."

40+ miles is quite the day, how did you pull that off?"

Yea must be a good story or workout. You are making me feel lazy!

T

timatkn: "

fadersup: "

Argo1: "This conversation makes me want to try a RobRoy!



I've used both paddle types (though not in the those boats). To me the double certainly feels faster but I think that is because it cancels out any sloppy technique I might have when trying hard, and it does it on the very next stroke so it never gets too far off center. I recently did a 40+ mile day paddle and about half way through I really started to feel how the higher cadence bent shaft was easier on my muscles overall and allowed me to keep going at a good clip without over exerting."

40+ miles is quite the day, how did you pull that off?"

Yea must be a good story or workout. You are making me feel lazy!


T"

It was down the Green River, which while scenic is basically a glass smooth so still a long day so I wouldn't have to camp (most people take 3-4 easy days).

Argo1: "

timatkn: "

fadersup: "

Argo1: "This conversation makes me want to try a RobRoy!




I've used both paddle types (though not in the those boats). To me the double certainly feels faster but I think that is because it cancels out any sloppy technique I might have when trying hard, and it does it on the very next stroke so it never gets too far off center. I recently did a 40+ mile day paddle and about half way through I really started to feel how the higher cadence bent shaft was easier on my muscles overall and allowed me to keep going at a good clip without over exerting."

40+ miles is quite the day, how did you pull that off?"

Yea must be a good story or workout. You are making me feel lazy!



T"

It was down the Green River, which while scenic is basically a glass smooth so still a long day so I wouldn't have to camp (most people take 3-4 easy days).
"

Wow, what a beautiful river to paddle.

Maybe I just am not good with the double blade but I prefer the single blade. I feel like I have more control of the canoe. Single blade + Magic canoe I seem to fly by everyone.