I am an ultralight hiker turned canoer. Now, I'm used to packing me and my 6 y/o sons things into one 65l pack. This contains all of our gear (sleep, tent, hammock, clothes, cooking, water, electronics, toiletries and fishing) plus food for the week. Maybe one extra backpack he carries for extra.

On the last trip I took with my father, son and other family members, these old timers camped HEAVY. Huge tents, giant coolers, cast iron pans with giant burners,120l duffle bags and the most camp gadgets I've ever seen. Now I know camping luxury is great, but they took forever to portage (double or triple portages) when my son and I were comfortably doing it all in one. These guys were toast after the first two lakes and they were a little upset when I was reluctant to help at first.

How should I convince these guys to lighten their load and that ultralight camping can be comfy and durable?

While your camping style conflicted with your traveling companions', I suspect you might not need convince them to change. Rather, you might simply be excluded from future trips with the "old timers".

That’s a difficult situation. We run into it with Scouting…the “ole timers” want to cook these elaborate meals…use the old heavy gear…because “that’s how we did it” and they are good, but the younger people want to spend their time exploring, fishing, relaxing, playing cards, joking around…not carrying around all their junk and cleaning up their huge mess.

It’s a balancing act…it’s their trip too. Did you enjoy some of the fruits of their “extra heavy” stuff? If so then help out. Are they really fun to have along…then maybe all of their extra junk is worth it and help them out. It’s a compromise.

I suspect though that after the last trip they will already be lighter. Have a discussion about how to compromise. What are the goals of the trip? Can you all agree on the goals. Discuss and offer If they bring less then you will help out more. You both win?

If neither of you can compromise then either keep doing what you are doing and be frustrated at times or do separate trips.

T

I have 2 modes of travel. When I'm solo, I go UL. When I'm with a group, I keep my stuff fairly light, but I recognize that isn't for everyone. I lower my travel expectations and I chip in to help in whatever way I can. You will just get frustrated trying to convince somehow to break from what they are used to bringing. So either change your mindset or travel without them. Now I have been successful in getting my husband to trim some weight...but "some" is the key word.

Sounds like you live by the "you bring it you sling it mantra".
I suggest before going again with the "old timers" ask then to employ the UL hiker practice of laying out and weighing EVERYTHING that they want to bring. Nothing like it to bring home just how many pounds all those choices and extras add up to.

If they continue to insist on bringing the kitchen sink it's up to you whether you can live with their choices.

Who planned the trip? That person sets the tone for the camping style, whether ultra lite or heavy.

However, there is always compromise. You may be an experienced UL backpacker, and are comfortable with minimalism, and when it is you and your son you get to "hike your own hike." However, ya gotta factor in age, experience, gear access, and desire when including others. And one thing I have learned over the years from reading this forum, that it is the experience of being with people, instead of how many miles you cover or sights you see, that make memories that stick with you long after those people you camped with have passed.

You want them to go lighter? Educate them. Maybe they don't know about the other options out there that will do the same function as their cast iron pans, but at a quarter of the weight. Maybe their heavy tents are all they own and they don't want to invest in something that they will use maybe a couple more times only when their tent works just fine. Rent lighter tents? Go over all their gadgets they brought and ask them how many times they used them and was it a critical use? If zero times and no critical uses, that may convince them to leave it behind. Cook them a meal using dehydrated food and maybe they'll leave the bacon/eggs behind.

I'd approach this as a discussion about trip style and whether they would enjoy a trip where portaging was easier and quicker at the expense of some luxuries or spending the money to replace gear with lighter alternatives. And they can ask you if you might enjoy a slower paced trip with more luxuries and experiencing the wilderness a different way. There is no right and wrong here. Then come on an agreement for a trip.

BTW, I enjoyed single portaging but then we double portaged on a trip when a friend requested doing that due to back problems and it was great. That trip back through the woods with no gear is an opportunity to see the forest in a way you can't with a canoe over your head. So help portage, everything will go quicker and you will find things that are enjoyable. So help your trip mates out. Heck, with double portaging many people will use their trip back to take some gear for people they've never met before.

Hello all! Thank for your responses, these are great ideas and discussion topics amoungst my group I honestly didn't consider when planning the trip. We did have a great trip with great memories and awesome fishing. I apologize this thread seems more of a rant from myself than a discussion point.

Better to rant at us than them. The most important thing is that you had a good trip and can look forward to more good times with family.

Different speeds can be done in different moods. Our first trip was with a couple that was single portaging and faster than us in the canoe. We were trying but not managing to single portage and we were always just a bit behind and felt like we were failing. We did have a great trip and have gone back many times but only once with that couple as part of a larger group.

Another time we took my brother-in-law and one of his friends. We were all single portaging but they were way faster than us on the water. But they just treated every time they had to wait for us as an opportunity to fish. So we went at our pace and they had a great time too.

I've been in similar situations with a couple of groups. My honest opinion is just to live with it, especially if they are family. Embrace the triple portage. Enjoy the cast iron. They're still coming out into the woods with you and making great family memories! There's only so many years left for this, enjoy them. It took me several years of frustration to realize that I'd be happier with my family if I just shut up and enjoyed their company instead of trying to get the whole group to pack and portage my way. I take separate trips now to get my travelling fix, which is always better in a smaller group anyway.

Ejd159: "cast iron pans with giant burners
"

:(
NO!

As I have aged certain things have expanded some including my waistline. On canoe trips I bring some items others would consider unnecessary but for me they provide the needed comfort to continue tripping.

Ejd159: "

On the last trip I took with my father, son and other family members, these old timers camped HEAVY. Huge tents, giant coolers, cast iron pans with giant burners,120l duffle bags and the most camp gadgets I've ever seen. Now I know camping luxury is great, but they took forever to portage (double or triple portages) when my son and I were comfortably doing it all in one. These guys were toast after the first two lakes and they were a little upset when I was reluctant to help at first.
"

I know I already commented on this, but I’d double down on talking to them about the trip. It sounds like they had a lot of difficulty. Chances are they are already thinking of lightening the load.

Some of it might be expense too. They already have all the gear they brought…it works…to buy or rent lighter/better gear might seem wasteful or too expensive. Can you loan them some or provide some?

If they are people worth going on another trip, then maybe getting them down to double portaging is the best you can do. I’d personally help them to be able to double portage. That could be part of the compromise. If you drop some gear, my son and I can help. Everyone wins.

T

timatkn:


.... If you drop some gear, my son and I can help. ...


T"

A permit is a privilege. If you're lucky enough to be included on someone else's permit, consider it an obligation to portage a equal share of the load.

If you can't live up to that obligation. Permits for all entry points are available on the last Wednesday of January at 9:00 a.m. CT. Get your own permit and add those tripping partners who are willing to conform.

I think this is a great discussion (not a rant).

Our first trip in, we were very inexperienced and only had an aluminum canoe. Immediately we started obtaining better, lightweight items. But it's expensive.

Our second trip, we were in a predicament with Covid that left our traveling partners without a canoe. We offered our canoe and brought our solo boats. The catch is that I cannot single portage. My knees do not allow me to carry that weight. I was however the fastest walker in the group. The group allowed me to reach the portage first, unload, and start on my first portage. While walking back for my 2nd portage, I'd meet them on their single portage. By the time I finished, they'd be packed up in their boats, and I'd set mine directly in the water and grab my pack. For most of the trip, I was the first off the water and the last back on the water. From what I remember, there was only 1 portage that they were sitting around waiting an excessive amount of time - and that's just because we were anxious to get a certain campsite.
That probably won't solve all your problems, but we were trying to maximize our time to be the most efficient we could.

I'd second the statement about weighing gear. I have a list of the weights of all our gear after that first trip and it was pretty eye opening. Helps make decisions.

Minnesotian: ",,,Cook them a meal using dehydrated food and maybe they'll leave the bacon/eggs behind.
"

haha... good humor there!

OCDave: "

timatkn:



.... If you drop some gear, my son and I can help. ...



T"

A permit is a privilege. If you're lucky enough to be included on someone else's permit, consider it an obligation to portage a equal share of the load.


If you can't live up to that obligation. Permits for all entry points are available on the last Wednesday of January at 9:00 a.m. CT. Get your own permit and add those tripping partners who are willing to conform.



"

Whoa...please explain the vitriol in your response?

It's the OP's trip...they are the light packer....they are asking for advice on how to incorporate the heavy packers into the OP's trip. It sounds like they want the heavy packers to go along not the “my way or the high way” as you seem to be subscribing to with your post above? Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it comes off. It's a group trip, they should work together as a group to make it a group trip. Don’t just take one line from my post and flame me, look at the whole perspective. You’ve had 2 posts in this thread, both negative…with no “help” offered at all. What’s the deal?

Going off subject, any good trip leader has to have some handle/control over the gear/weight. You can't just have everyone bring whatever they want. The typical way to handle this is you carry what you bring and we all carry the food and gear together. When you have to carry all of your EXTRA junk this miracle happens that all of a sudden a lot of it suddenly becomes unnecessary :) There has to be some personal responsibility and accountability as well. Otherwise you have people bringing 15 changes of clothes 6 flashlights, extra stoves, extra pots, bottled water, heck even firewood. I've seen it all :)

T

It's an interesting dilemma and one i've come across frequently to varying degrees. I have no real solution. Having some level of discussion about it in the planning stages, has helped, but it still doesn't guarentee someone doesn't show up all janky with tons of stuff. I usually just help out and ruminate about it silently when that happens. It's frustrating, but not to the point ruining the trip or even causing any real stress.

I wouldn't say I pack UL, but rather efficiently and don't really bring stuff I don't need. I like ease of travel and everything goes into the pack. I have one pack, either a hiking style pack or a frost river #3. The only loose items are PFD, paddle, map and water bottle. Water bottle and map both have available space in the pack.

When solo'ing we either single or double depending on the pack and boat and if the others in the party are single or double. We just have a quick discussion in the planning stages or at the EP..."We singling or doubling?" someone usually says and we're all typically capable of making either happen...this is the solo group I go with.

Tandem's are where it falls apart. Lots of rotation on canoe trip participants and varying degrees of experience and camping styles. I can't think of the last time we singles with tandems, almost always double. In a perfect case we both walk our packs over then we take turns going back for the canoe, so every other portage is either single or double.

Good Luck and i'm sure a quick discussion, now that everyone has been on a trip will be recieved well.

As someone who takes up 15-20 men every fall (3 groups) and has done so for 15 years I have come up with this solution:

We are in three groups. Each group decides on what type of food and camp style they want (so the guys can choose).

Most of us hate to portage but like to explore. So we choose a lake in the center of a number of lakes we want to explore. We base camp on that lake, then day trip to the others. That way we only portage the canoe and a day pack. We also don't have to waste all the time setting up and taking down a camp every day

I used to go with the "you bring it you portage it" rule. . .but we ended up sitting and waiting on the slower portage guys and it slowed us up. Now we attack the portages like a military unit. The 3-4 canoes per camp pull in and unload. 3-4 guys grab the canoes and get them through first. The others start grabbing gear and heading right behind them. Everyone attacks the gear until everyone is through.

I have found "dictating" the type of trip we take doesn't go over well and some won't come. So now I give the guys choices to select the camp/style they want.

The key. . . everyone gives up something for everyone to enjoy the trip. You want to go ultra light and eat dehydrated MRE's for the trip. . .go for it. Those that want to eat real/large meals get to do so as well. If we get a couple of "explorers" they leave in the morning and come back in the evenings. We keep in touch by radios so we know where they are at.

Make it a trip everyone enjoys. To force the entire group to do "your" trip because you planned it just makes you frustrated and the rest of the group mad

You can lead a horse to water....

I cut the handle off of my toothbrush to save weight. I'm a gram weenie and I absolutely love to pack light on my wilderness canoe trips. What I've learned is not to push my ways on anyone else in the group. I'll let them pack how they want to pack. I'll still help them with their gear even if it means double or triple portaging. I don't rush others on a portage because that's how people get hurt. I enjoy my lightweight packing on solo trips and travel quickly and efficiently. It was an evolution for me and maybe the other people that I travel with will see what I'm doing and evolve to lighter packs too....but probably not

ockycamper: "

The key. . . everyone gives up something for everyone to enjoy the trip. You want to go ultra light and eat dehydrated MRE's for the trip. . .go for it. Those that want to eat real/large meals get to do so as well. If we get a couple of "explorers" they leave in the morning and come back in the evenings. We keep in touch by radios so we know where they are at.


Make it a trip everyone enjoys. To force the entire group to do "your" trip because you planned it just makes you frustrated and the rest of the group mad"

I think this is very well stated.

T