We had a permit for Duncan entry one week ago today. You enter via Bearskin. We had to break and move ice to get onto Bearskin. The bay on Duncan where you put in from the portage was iced over; thick, white ice.

In my younger/dumber/aluminum canoe days, I would have loaded up and moved across the ice (or tried to) and into the open water. We did not do that. There is one campsite on Bearskin, it was open, we settled in there after a long morning + of attempting to get onto Bearskin (we even tried Moss Lake, prior). The wind switched during the night (to out of East) - which gave me hope of moving the ice out.

Assuming you could get into Duncan the next day, would you move camp? You are now a day beyond your permit entry day. Would you stay put and day trip (still need day permits)? Would you have gone up to Daniels and attempted an entry there? Thoughts? [FYI, Bearskin Lake is not within the BWCA]

Interesting question and problem. The Forest Service Rangers and Officers would likely say that you can't enter and stay the night since your permit technically expired and you wouldn't be able to enter the BWCA with intentions of an overnight stay.

To be honest, I would probably enter Duncan the next day without any moral qualms. The permitting system is to spread out people into the wilderness and since you had pulled a permit, you would make a pretty minimal impact (especially if you didn't extend your trip length). That being said, I would not take this logic to ever enter the BW for an overnight stay without a permit. I just think since you had a permit for the day before and were blocked due to ice is completely reasonable to me to enter the next morning. I understand some may disagree with me on that. Moreover, once you were on Duncan, it would be very hard for them to prove and persecute you unless some FS Rangers saw you were at the Bearskin site in the morning..

You're rolling with nature's curveball and made a better choice for yourselves and any potential rescuers had something gone wrong on the ice.

My gut would be to press on the intended route the next day, however, you didn't say what the planned route had actually been. It's worth considering if a window of opportunity on Duncan could also signal similar ice issues on lakes ahead or complicate a smooth return.

Because the Bearskin site is not in the BWCA, base camping there for a few nights without having to feel guilty about the needs of other permit holders is a nice alternative. Pulling a day-use permit to explore Daniels, etc., is probably the "correct" choice but considering you already had an overnight permit in-hand....

I don't know how this would fly with a ranger, but the fact that you're asking these questions means you're a better steward of the wilderness than many others who will visit the BWCA this season. LNT and enjoy.

Chessie,

I think there are times when ethical is a bigger circle than strictly legal. Under your circumstances, I would not have any issue (myself or for others) moving on to Duncan the next day. You would be creating the same amount of "usage" from Duncan and beyond as entering on permit day. If I did enter the next day under these circumstances and was stopped by the FS, I'd explain what we did and why and pay the fine if cited. Such is life. If a group decided that they would not enter under these circumstances, I would respect that too. Your scenario is very different than many, particularly given the ice you faced. Some time ago, there was a thread about two guys who entered somewhere on time but struggled back to the entry point parking lot in the face of dangerous wind. They went back in the next day. Technically it's against the rules but they lived. I'd do that too but know and respect others who would say they should have sought a permit for somewhere, anywhere, the next day.

Interesting scenario. Thanks for sharing. I always value safety first - so you did the right thing turning back to Bearskin. As for the next day, I'm not going to judge someone for beginning their trip a day late due to a safety hazard. I realize that opens up concerns about other situations throughout the year - winds, storms, etc. What one person considers dangerous winds may not be dangerous for others of us. Still, I would prefer that every group paddles within their ability. If something causes you to pause and "play it safe", I see no reason for that to be the end of your trip before it starts. But I also realize this is technically against the law, so I would be prepared to pay a fine if a ranger disagreed with my logic.

chessie: "In my younger/dumber/aluminum canoe days"

Nothing dumb about an aluminum canoe.
I can out travel most here in my Grumman.
It's the workhorse, pick up truck of canoe travel.

Stumpy: "

chessie: "In my younger/dumber/aluminum canoe days"

Nothing dumb about an aluminum canoe.
I can out travel most here in my Grumman.
It's the workhorse, pick up truck of canoe travel. "

Stumpy: I certainly was not dissing aluminum canoes, I still have and use one, especially for ricing. I was referring to myself as "dumber"! As in, were I in this situation when I was younger and/or had a more durable boat, I may have tried ice-traveling. Really, I'm not sure I'm much smarter as I age, just more cautious, and less able-bodied! And the less able-bodied is why I have a Kevlar boat, as I can no longer hoist the workhorse above my head!

chessie: "

Stumpy: "

chessie: "In my younger/dumber/aluminum canoe days"

Nothing dumb about an aluminum canoe.
I can out travel most here in my Grumman.
It's the workhorse, pick up truck of canoe travel. "

Stumpy: I certainly was not dissing aluminum canoes, I still have and use one, especially for ricing. I was referring to myself as "dumber"! As in, were I in this situation when I was younger and/or had a more durable boat, I may have tried ice-traveling. Really, I'm not sure I'm much smarter as I age, just more cautious, and less able-bodied! And the less able-bodied is why I have a Kevlar boat, as I can no longer hoist the workhorse above my head! "

All good....enjoy
I'm really not as sensitive as I came off.... I think ;)

Stumpy: "

chessie: "In my younger/dumber/aluminum canoe days"

Nothing dumb about an aluminum canoe.
I can out travel most here in my Grumman.
It's the workhorse, pick up truck of canoe travel. "

Only one problem Stumpy you should have a Aluma-craft canoe. Yes, I switched to Kevlar, but will never get rid of my aluminum canoe.

What a great question and what an interesting discussion. It is refreshing to have a conversation online without getting into an argument or name -calling (kevlar vs aluminum notwithstanding) LOL.

What would I do? I probably would stay at that campsite and day trip. But I am (by my very nature and career) a rule/policy follower. The anxiety I would have because I was breaking the rules would really keep me from going in on a day late.

I also understand the forest service rangers would probably also have a problem with this. In their shoes, (and my opinion) if they make a judgement to allow exceptions to the permitting/entry rules in this case it starts a very subjective slippery slope about whose exception is valid and whose is not. This may be judgement path they don't want to start. It is much cleaner and actually more protective to follow the current process.

THAT being said, I also completely understand the other side regarding impact, "spirit of the rule" compared to "letter of the rule" argument. This situation as opposed to ying-yangs that just disregard permits or hop to whatever EP they want regardless of permits is a whole different ball of wax.

Just my opinion--I wouldn't do it, but I really understand and don't necessarily disagree with the other side.

Again, great conversation all!

chessie: "We had a permit for Duncan entry one week ago today. You enter via Bearskin. We had to break and move ice to get onto Bearskin. The bay on Duncan where you put in from the portage was iced over; thick, white ice.

In my younger/dumber/aluminum canoe days, I would have loaded up and moved across the ice (or tried to) and into the open water. We did not do that. There is one campsite on Bearskin, it was open, we settled in there after a long morning + of attempting to get onto Bearskin (we even tried Moss Lake, prior). The wind switched during the night (to out of East) - which gave me hope of moving the ice out.

Assuming you could get into Duncan the next day, would you move camp? You are now a day beyond your permit entry day. Would you stay put and day trip (still need day permits)? Would you have gone up to Daniels and attempted an entry there? Thoughts? [FYI, Bearskin Lake is not within the BWCA]"

A good question, if I was the Ranger and understand everyone was trying to do right in good faith, I would allow you to go the next day, not two days later. Trying to push thru ice that has some depth to it is dangerous, your canoe lifts up on the ice in front and your canoe becomes very unstable. You made a good choice. You could always call them and ask?

In 2012 when the ice went out on some lakes in the Gunflint area, we tried to get to Duncan, but ice stopped us from getting past the point on the West Bearskin across the bay on the west access.(That time of year you just picked up a permit at the entry point).

Did you try the entry point from the east or west access?

I would hope everyone would keep it moving in that situation.

Comes down to the intent of the rule vs the letter for me.

Pinetree: "

chessie: "We had a permit for Duncan entry one week ago today. You enter via Bearskin. We had to break and move ice to get onto Bearskin. The bay on Duncan where you put in from the portage was iced over; thick, white ice.


In my younger/dumber/aluminum canoe days, I would have loaded up and moved across the ice (or tried to) and into the open water. We did not do that. There is one campsite on Bearskin, it was open, we settled in there after a long morning + of attempting to get onto Bearskin (we even tried Moss Lake, prior). The wind switched during the night (to out of East) - which gave me hope of moving the ice out.


Assuming you could get into Duncan the next day, would you move camp? You are now a day beyond your permit entry day. Would you stay put and day trip (still need day permits)? Would you have gone up to Daniels and attempted an entry there? Thoughts? [FYI, Bearskin Lake is not within the BWCA]"

A good question, if I was the Ranger and understand everyone was trying to do right in good faith, I would allow you to go the next day, not two days later. Trying to push thru ice that has some depth to it is dangerous, your canoe lifts up on the ice in front and your canoe becomes very unstable. You made a good choice. You could always call them and ask?


In 2012 when the ice went out on some lakes in the Gunflint area, we tried to get to Duncan, but ice stopped us from getting past the point on the West Bearskin across the bay on the west access.(That time of year you just picked up a permit at the entry point).


Did you try the entry point from the east or west access?
"

We attempted the west access. Guessing the east end would have been even worse as far as ice, due to prevailing winds.