Hello paddlers,

Last year I picked up a Bell Yellow tandem that I have outfitted for solo paddling with the center seat. This canoe has a peculiarity that I haven't seen in my other boats. When the bow gets blown around by the wind while I have some forward speed, it is very difficult to arrest the turning momentum by paddling on the inside (for example, if bow is getting blown right, it takes 4+ strokes on the right side to neutralize the rotational momentum, sometimes it doesn't work and I have to use a more drastic correction). I can use a pry or cross draw to stop the turn but then I lose a lot of forward speed. I also notice this when paddling with a double blade - if I let it get into a turn more than slightly it really wants to bight into the turn and requires that I nearly come to a stop to correct it.

Is this an issue with this boat in particular, or all Bell Yellowstone tandem's paddled solo, or all asymmetrically rockered canoes? This model has 2" rocker in the bow and 3" in the stern. I recognize this is a lot of rocker to be able to track straight, but I have no issues with my dagger legend which has 2" rocker bow and stern.

Anyone have a similar experience or can offer any advice for either outfitting or paddling? I'm an intermediate paddler that has been doing river trips for about 5 years. I'm familiar with all of the standard paddle strokes, but this one seems particularly difficult to wrestle into control compared with other boats I've paddled.

Is the canoe bow or stern heavy while you're paddling it? Is your seat exactly center of the canoe? Sounds like you're stern heavy

Nyakavt

I would say the difficulty in trying to keep the canoe on course is due to the depth of the boat. A 14” center depth is deep for a boat being paddled solo. With out a heavy load it would be very difficult in any wind.
I would suggest some dry bags filled with water to lower the boat. The added weight will help the tracking and make the boat more stable.

Carl

Blatz: "Is the canoe bow or stern heavy while you're paddling it? Is your seat exactly center of the canoe? Sounds like you're stern heavy"

The canoe trims neutral to slightly bow light depending on gear loadout. We try to trim as neutral as possible, but definitely err on the side of bow light (I've been told you never want to be bow heavy).

RedLakePaddler:" Nyakavt
I would say the difficulty in trying to keep the canoe on course is due to the depth of the boat. A 14” center depth is deep for a boat being paddled solo. With out a heavy load it would be very difficult in any wind.
I would suggest some dry bags filled with water to lower the boat. The added weight will help the tracking and make the boat more stable.
Carl"

Hi Carl,
I have had the boat loaded with up to 5 days worth of camping gear/food. All told the gear is 100-150 lbs, and I'm 230 lbs. It seems to catch the wind loaded or empty. I'm ok with a little weather-vaning, but the main problem is why it seems to accelerate into the turn and becomes very difficult to correct.

See the attached photo for the seat position. The folks at Bell recommend the seat front about 6-8" aft of the center carry thwart. The seat is positioned so when kneeling (and sitting on the front of the seat), my belly button is even with the carry thwart (carry thwart removed, see rivet holes for the old position). Kneeling or sitting doesn't seem to make a difference with this problem.

Something is not right. If you are kneeling and using those knee pads with your belly button by the rivets then your weight is way too far forward and your boat will be impossible to control. Those rivets are not in the center of the boat, they don't look like they could have been for a carry thwart. The curved thwart behind your center seat looks like it's in the center where a carry thwart would be and in this case your seat should be on the other side of it. Maybe I'm not interpreting the picture correctly but offhand it just looks like you are bow heavy which is consistent with the description of your handling problem.

Go with a single blade, and try heeling the hull,

I had this problem with the very first stripper I built.
I found that heeling to my paddle side corrected it.

Give it a try, a it doesn't involve changing the hull.

As a last ditch effort, you could pull gunnels in, that would force some of the rocker out. This would involve replacing the thwarts, or at least shortening them, and the seat.

Good luck, and let us know how it handles.

Jim

justpaddlin: "Something is not right. If you are kneeling and using those knee pads with your belly button by the rivets then your weight is way too far forward and your boat will be impossible to control. Those rivets are not in the center of the boat, they don't look like they could have been for a carry thwart. The curved thwart behind your center seat looks like it's in the center where a carry thwart would be and in this case your seat should be on the other side of it. Maybe I'm not interpreting the picture correctly but offhand it just looks like you are bow heavy which is consistent with the description of your handling problem."

The rivets are where the carry thwart was mounted. By tape measure this is pretty close to the center of the boat, within an inch or so. The seat is aft of the old carry thwart. The rear of the seat is very close to the original stern thwart, so I made a curved one to avoid it rubbing against my back when seated. So my weight is perhaps 12" aft of the carry thwart when sitting, and ~4" aft when kneeling.

Are you saying I shouldn't be seated near the carry thwart, but much further back? The boat trims pretty much neutral without gear with the seat in its current position. I went by the advice of several folks on the forum and email correspondence with Northstar canoes that suggested 6-8" aft of the carry thwart, so you could still reach forward of center for maneuvering when necessary.

1JimD: " Go with a single blade, and try heeling the hull,

I had this problem with the very first stripper I built.
I found that heeling to my paddle side corrected it.

Give it a try, a it doesn't involve changing the hull.

As a last ditch effort, you could pull gunnels in, that would force some of the rocker out. This would involve replacing the thwarts, or at least shortening them, and the seat.

Good luck, and let us know how it handles.

Jim"

Thanks Jim. I'll have to try this next time I can get on the local lake. I've not done any heeling before so maybe I'll wait until it's a bit warmer out :)

I didn't realize pulling in the gunwales would reduce rocker. I could experiment by removing seats and clamping in temporary thwarts to see if this helps. I like how easily the boat turns, but I don't like how it seems to accelerate into turns once it gets going.

nyakavt: "

Blatz: "Is the canoe bow or stern heavy while you're paddling it? Is your seat exactly center of the canoe? Sounds like you're stern heavy"

The canoe trims neutral to slightly bow light depending on gear loadout. We try to trim as neutral as possible, but definitely err on the side of bow light (I've been told you never want to be bow heavy).

RedLakePaddler:" Nyakavt
I would say the difficulty in trying to keep the canoe on course is due to the depth of the boat. A 14” center depth is deep for a boat being paddled solo. With out a heavy load it would be very difficult in any wind.
I would suggest some dry bags filled with water to lower the boat. The added weight will help the tracking and make the boat more stable.
Carl"

Hi Carl,
I have had the boat loaded with up to 5 days worth of camping gear/food. All told the gear is 100-150 lbs, and I'm 230 lbs. It seems to catch the wind loaded or empty. I'm ok with a little weather-vaning, but the main problem is why it seems to accelerate into the turn and becomes very difficult to correct.


See the attached photo for the seat position. The folks at Bell recommend the seat front about 6-8" aft of the center carry thwart. The seat is positioned so when kneeling (and sitting on the front of the seat), my belly button is even with the carry thwart (carry thwart removed, see rivet holes for the old position). Kneeling or sitting doesn't seem to make a difference with this problem. "

Who told you never to be Bow Heavy? Going into the wind that's exactly what you want to do. That's why many canoes come with sliding seat so you can easily become bow heavy going into the wind.

The seat placement looks right.
14” is pretty deep for a canoe, especially if not pushed down in the water.
The extra 1” of rocker is not going to be all that noticeable.
2” in the front and 3” in the back tells me it’s a river canoe.

I don’t like the sound of that boat. Trade or sell. My opinion.
Tom

I had the previous version of that boat when it was called a Wildfire. Same behavior - it could really dance around and fun to maneuver, but could not hold a heading in any wind. I now have a Bell Magic. Straight an an arrow. I can paddle on one side all day, or until I get bored, using only a moderate J stroke.

nyakavt: "

justpaddlin: "Something is not right. If you are kneeling and using those knee pads with your belly button by the rivets then your weight is way too far forward and your boat will be impossible to control. Those rivets are not in the center of the boat, they don't look like they could have been for a carry thwart. The curved thwart behind your center seat looks like it's in the center where a carry thwart would be and in this case your seat should be on the other side of it. Maybe I'm not interpreting the picture correctly but offhand it just looks like you are bow heavy which is consistent with the description of your handling problem."

The rivets are where the carry thwart was mounted. By tape measure this is pretty close to the center of the boat, within an inch or so. The seat is aft of the old carry thwart. The rear of the seat is very close to the original stern thwart, so I made a curved one to avoid it rubbing against my back when seated. So my weight is perhaps 12" aft of the carry thwart when sitting, and ~4" aft when kneeling.


Are you saying I shouldn't be seated near the carry thwart, but much further back? The boat trims pretty much neutral without gear with the seat in its current position. I went by the advice of several folks on the forum and email correspondenxce with Northstar canoes that suggested 6-8" aft of the carry thwart, so you could still reach forward of center for maneuvering when necessary."

It sounds like your seat placement is fine, I misinterpreted your picture.

There's no generic issue with asymmetric rocker, my solo canoes are well-behaved in high wind although the ones with the most rocker get pushed around the most. You may just be experiencing normal behavior for solo paddling a lightly loaded tandem river boat in the wind. Rocker specs are not standardized so it could be misleading to compare your 3" Of "Bell rocker" to 2" of "Dagger rocker"...but even if measured same way an additional 1" of front rocker is bad for tracking in wind.

You might try taking a loaded pack with you sometime just to experiment with trim and also to feel whether the boat settles down with more weight in it (weight will almost surely help so maybe you should take your dog with you). Some folks like double-bladed paddles for solo paddling on windy days.

nyakavt: "

justpaddlin: "Something is not right. If you are kneeling and using those knee pads with your belly button by the rivets then your weight is way too far forward and your boat will be impossible to control. Those rivets are not in the center of the boat, they don't look like they could have been for a carry thwart. The curved thwart behind your center seat looks like it's in the center where a carry thwart would be and in this case your seat should be on the other side of it. Maybe I'm not interpreting the picture correctly but offhand it just looks like you are bow heavy which is consistent with the description of your handling problem."

The rivets are where the carry thwart was mounted. By tape measure this is pretty close to the center of the boat, within an inch or so. The seat is aft of the old carry thwart. The rear of the seat is very close to the original stern thwart, so I made a curved one to avoid it rubbing against my back when seated. So my weight is perhaps 12" aft of the carry thwart when sitting, and ~4" aft when kneeling.


Are you saying I shouldn't be seated near the carry thwart, but much further back? The boat trims pretty much neutral without gear with the seat in its current position. I went by the advice of several folks on the forum and email correspondenxce with Northstar canoes that suggested 6-8" aft of the carry thwart, so you could still reach forward of center for maneuvering when necessary."

It sounds like your seat placement is fine, I misinterpretted your picture.

There's no generic issue with asymmetric rocker, my solo canoes are well-behaved in high wind although the ones with the most rocker get pushed around the most. You may just be experiencing normal behavior for solo paddling a lightly loaded tandem river boat in the wind. Rocker specs are not standardized so it could be misleading to compare your 3" Of "Bell rocker" to 2" of "Dagger rocker"...but even if measured same way an additional 1" of front rocker is bad for tracking in wind.

You might try taking a loaded pack with you sometime just to experiment with trim and also to feel whether the boat settles down with more weight in it (weight will almost surely help so maybe you should take your dog with you). Some folks like double-bladed paddles for solo paddling on windy days.

justpaddlin: "You might try taking a loaded pack with you sometime just to experiment with trim and also to feel whether the boat settles down with more weight in it (weight will almost surely help so maybe you should take your dog with you). Some folks like double-bladed paddles for solo paddling on windy days."

Sounds like a trim+windage issue. Soloing a tandem can be a challenge. The bigger boat catches much more wind than a smaller solo, which can make these hulls VERY trim dependent.

You'll want to trim bow down when heading up wind and stern down when off the wind. It can also help to shift you weight sideways in the seat a bit to present the bottom of the boat to the wind, rather than the open top.

Get some kind of weight that you can easily shift--a 20# bag of shot works well. Put it in a stuff sack, tie a rope to it, and throw it up in the end of the boat. Experiment with weighting the bow and stern more heavily in different conditions.

Soloing a tandem is always a compromise. Hopefully these suggestions help.

Brian from Wenonah

"Who told you never to be Bow Heavy? Going into the wind that's exactly what you want to do. That's why many canoes come with sliding seat so you can easily become bow heavy going into the wind.
"

That's been the advice from my small group when going down river. I should have made this clear that I/we primarily do multi day river trips. Bow heavy will reduce maneuverability in the river and may cause you to hit obstacles.

The weather-vaning is not really the problem here, I can keep the boat going straight into the wind and I understand why this is happening. My problem is how the boat seems to accelerate the turning rate when its more than a few degrees off center, which causes me to make drastic corrections to arrest the rotational momentum.

From all the responses in this thread I think I just have a trim problem. Maybe I'm not as neutrally trimmed as I thought. I'll experiment with putting the heavier items in front of me rather than behind me and see if that eliminates the problem. It makes sense that if I'm excessively stern heavy the boat will be more likely to pivot and harder to straighten out.

Thanks to everyone for your advice!

A few more thoughts:

"That's been the advice from my small group when going down river. I should have made this clear that I/we primarily do multi day river trips. Bow heavy will reduce maneuverability in the river and may cause you to hit obstacles."

--Maybe. Bow down effectively increases stern rocker. Which makes the canoe turn faster. It actually increases maneuverability.

--But, bow down will also make the bow engage more sharply on eddylines, which means the boat will feel grabbier.

--Bow down is definitely what you want if you're trying to backferry, which is what you should be doing in a larger canoe on moving water. It's the most effective way to control a big canoe in whitewater and it requires keeping the upstream end of the canoe higher than the downstream end.

"The weather-vaning is not really the problem here, I can keep the boat going straight into the wind and I understand why this is happening. My problem is how the boat seems to accelerate the turning rate when its more than a few degrees off center, which causes me to make drastic corrections to arrest the rotational momentum."

--This is a great clue. Sounds like you're actually trimmed a little bow heavy. If you can keep the canoe paddling straight into the wind with ease you must be trimmed bow down. If you were trimmed to heavy in the stern the canoe would be difficult to paddle into the wind. It would want to turn around and blow down wind.

What you're describing sounds like a canoe with lots of stern rocker. Boats that are loose in the stern will accelerate into a turn, even a turn to the paddle side. This is common in whitewater canoes and kayaks, which will continue to turn to the paddle side once the turn is initiated unless corrected with a sharp stern draw.

If this is the case, you should try weighting the stern rather than the bow.

"From all the responses in this thread I think I just have a trim problem. Maybe I'm not as neutrally trimmed as I thought."

--This has to be the case. Going back to the initial question about asymmetric rocker, if the canoe has more stern rocker than bow rocker you may find that you need to weight the stern to drop it deeper in the water if you want to improve tracking. This effectively changes the rocker profile of the canoe in the water.

One last thing. Stern draw. If you find yourself turning toward the paddle side and unable to correct, the best way to get the boat back on track is with a draw stroke at the stern. Canoes steer from the back, not the front. Drawing the stern sideways corrects the skidding motion that the stern is making through the water. Rotate your torso toward the paddle side, plant the paddle well behind your body, and draw the stern of the canoe toward the paddle.

A sharp stern draw will do more to correct your skid than a half dozen sweep strokes. Gotta try it to see how effective it is.

Hope this helps!

Brian from Wenonah

Brian,

Wow, awesome insights! Thanks for your reply. I'll do some experimenting with trim next time I'm out.

nyakavt: "Brian,


Wow, awesome insights! Thanks for your reply. I'll do some experimenting with trim next time I'm out."

Happy to help. Good luck!