What do you know about heading east from Entry #66, Crocodile River? Does it connect anywhere with any lakes north of the river? Could I get up to Alder or Pine? How far east can you travel? What about low water?

Here is what I know. The first time I thought about going to Crocodile Lake I stoped by the ranger station to secure my permit. I told the ranger that I needed a permit for entry 66 , Crocodile River. He said nobody ever uses that entry and it is never maintained . He told me to go through East Bearskin, and issued me a permit for entry 64, which enters at East Bearskin. From there it is a short paddle , and one portage to get into Crocodile. I have made several trips to Croc. Since and have always used entry 64 . I do think I am technically breaking the rules by entering at 64 , but the Rangers said it was o.k. to do this so that is what I do. To get to the other lakes you mentioned East Bearskin would be much easier. I am sure others have did the Crocodile River entry 66, and maybe it is not as bad as what I have been told.

quote walllee: "Here is what I know. The first time I thought about going to Crocodile Lake I stoped by the ranger station to secure my permit. I told the ranger that I needed a permit for entry 66 , Crocodile River. He said nobody ever uses that entry and it is never maintained . He told me to go through East Bearskin, and issued me a permit for entry 64, which enters at East Bearskin. From there it is a short paddle , and one portage to get into Crocodile. I have made several trips to Croc. Since and have always used entry 64 . I do think I am technically breaking the rules by entering at 64 , but the Rangers said it was o.k. to do this so that is what I do. To get to the other lakes you mentioned East Bearskin would be much easier. I am sure others have did the Crocodile River entry 66, and maybe it is not as bad as what I have been told."

I think you are legal entering ep 64 and paddling to crock and even to camp on crock. I believe you would be illegal if you got a permit for ep 66 and then left crock lake to camp on another lake. You could do day trips to any other lake but with a ep 66 permit I think you need to camp all nights on crock. That's why I think the ranger told you to vet an ep 64 permit so you'd have the option of camping on whatever lake you wanted.

quote Grandma L: "What do you know about heading east from Entry #66, Crocodile River? Does it connect anywhere with any lakes north of the river? Could I get up to Alder or Pine? How far east can you travel? What about low water?"

If you head east from ep 66 you cannot connect to any lakes to the north like pine lake unless you were willing to bushwack.

There may be an old, unmaintained portage that I'm not aware of.

quote walllee: "Here is what I know. The first time I thought about going to Crocodile Lake I stoped by the ranger station to secure my permit. I told the ranger that I needed a permit for entry 66 , Crocodile River. He said nobody ever uses that entry and it is never maintained . He told me to go through East Bearskin, and issued me a permit for entry 64, which enters at East Bearskin. From there it is a short paddle , and one portage to get into Crocodile. I have made several trips to Croc. Since and have always used entry 64 . I do think I am technically breaking the rules by entering at 64 , but the Rangers said it was o.k. to do this so that is what I do. To get to the other lakes you mentioned East Bearskin would be much easier. I am sure others have did the Crocodile River entry 66, and maybe it is not as bad as what I have been told."

Most of East Bearskin is NOT in the BWCA. You can enter at the E. Bearskin put in and paddle down to the portage into Crocodile (ep66). You do not enter the BW until you are on that portage. There is another 66 entry from the Greenwood Lake road, through the "vegetable chain", that is rugged and not maintained. THAT is the entry that is seldom used. Either way, Crocodile (66) is essentially a "dead end" destination. If you did bushwhack north to Alder, you would have to explain that if you were checked because the only established route is to go back out to E. Bearskin (leaving the wilderness) and then paddle/portage east to Alder where you should technically have a ep64 permit. (entry from E. Bearskin).
Getting back to the op, I have never heard of anyone paddling or bushwhacking their way out of Crocodile to the north or east.

So Crocidile Lake and the river are pretty much a dead end! Wow, what a waste.

quote Grandma L: "So Crocidile Lake and the river are pretty much a dead end! Wow, what a waste."

Not if your a fisherman

Here is the description from the recreation.gov site under 66 Crocodile River:
"Method of travel is paddle. Can access Crocodile Lake from Crocodile River or East Bearskin. Must spend all nights on Crocodile Lake."

quote caribouluvr: "Here is the description from the recreation.gov site under 66 Crocodile River:
"Method of travel is paddle. Can access Crocodile Lake from Crocodile River or East Bearskin. Must spend all nights on Crocodile Lake.""

Yes.... But the 'must spend all nights on Crocodile Lake' only applied to those who get an EP #66 permit. If you get an East Bearskin Lake permit, and travel to Crocodile Lake, you do not have to spend any nights there. You can go where you like.

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote caribouluvr: "Here is the description from the recreation.gov site under 66 Crocodile River:
"Method of travel is paddle. Can access Crocodile Lake from Crocodile River or East Bearskin. Must spend all nights on Crocodile Lake.""

Yes.... But the 'must spend all nights on Crocodile Lake' only applied to those who get an EP #66 permit. If you get an East Bearskin Lake permit, and travel to Crocodile Lake, you do not have to spend any nights there. You can go where you like."

This same question was addressed in this thread starting 1/4 of the way down. I have a feeling the interpretation of the rules will vary depending on which FS ranger is on duty and perhaps what mood they are in. : )

quote Grandma L: "So Crocidile Lake and the river are pretty much a dead end! Wow, what a waste."

I don't think it's a waste. I think continuation of trip applies here. If you get an East Bearskin permit. You could probably camp on Crocodile and Alder in the same trip. Call the ranger station and ask.

I believe you can use the entry permit 66, enter at 64 and then go to crocodile and spend all your nights on that lake per the permit.
the 64 permit is to travel to the end of east bearskin through either arm, technically speaking, I think.

Here is the scoop on EP 66 and EP 64 directly from the Recreation.gov website:

66 Crocodile River (op)
Entrance Description
Method of travel is paddle. Can access Crocodile Lake from Crocodile River or East Bearskin. Must spend all nights on Crocodile Lake. For more information, please call the Gunflint Ranger Station at 218-387-1750.

64 East Bearskin (op,om)
Entrance Description
Method of travel is paddle or motor. 25 h.p. motor limit. Motors allowed on East Bearskin Lake only. No motors on Alder or Canoe Lakes. For more information, please call the Gunflint Ranger Station at 218-387-1750.

There is no ambiguity. If you get an EP #66 permit, you must enter the BWCA on the date of issue for your permit. You MUST camp all nights on Crocodile Lake. You can daytrip anywhere within the BWCA that you want to but you must camp on Crocodile lAKE, PERIOD! Because the official EP 66 is not well maintained, the USFS allows you to start from EP 64 with your EP 66 permit.

If you get an EP 64 permit, there are no limitations or restrictions to where you can go or camp within the BWCA. You must enter through EP 64 on the date of issue for your permit, then go and camp wherever you like within the BWCA, including Crocodile Lake if you so choose. You are NOT restricted to camping on Crocodile Lake with an EP 64 permit. Nor do you have to camp on or even travel to Crocodile Lake.

I disagree on some points. Crocodile is one permit per day.....because it is a small entry/destination. I doubt the FS would want/allow any ep64 groups in there for camping purposes.Day permits...ok. But only ep66 day permits. When you launch on East Bearskin, you ARE NOT IN THE BW YET. The actual "boundary" lines are in the tips of the 2 east arms of East Bearskin .....past the Crocodile River entry. If you have a 64 permit and go into Alder, you would have to exit the wilderness to go back to the portage to get into Crocodile River. I don't think the "continued travel" gambit applies here. Same thing for a group with a 66 permit. You would have to exit the wilderness (into E. Bearskin lake) to get to Alder or Moon.(this point is covered in the rec.gov blurb)
You could probably call the ranger station 4 times and get 4 opinions on this, but, if you look at the actual park boundaries, it's not as difficult as it seems. IMO, 66 is a stand alone, dead end destination, similar to Bog Lake.

I agree with Cowdoc. If you have an overnight permit for EP 64, you better not get caught camping on Crocodile. If you have an overnight permit for EP 66, you may enter and exit Crocodile via the East Bearskin portage, but must camp on Crocodile.

We spent a few days on Croc last fall. We wanted to camp and fish there and maybe explore the Veggie lakes as well. When we tried to head east out of Crock, we got mired in a LONG swampy area and ended up turning around. We did make it to the Veggie lakes the next day after a HUGE rainstorm raised the water level. Nice area!

quote AndySG: "I agree with Cowdoc. If you have an overnight permit for EP 64, you better not get caught camping on Crocodile. If you have an overnight permit for EP 66, you may enter and exit Crocodile via the East Bearskin portage, but must camp on Crocodile."

We agree 100% if you have an EP 66 permit that you MUST camp on Crocodile Lake - all nights while in the BWCA. I also think that you can do day trips to any other BWCA lakes as long as you get back to Crocodile to camp every night. You can also use EP 64 to access Crocodile Lake with an EP 66 permit.

Where we disagree is where you can go and camp with an EP 64 permit. There is nothing on the recreation.gov websites' description for EP 64 that places any limits on where you can go or camp with an EP 64 permit.

Unlike the description for EP 66 which specifies explicitly that you must camp all nights on Crocodile. And the EP 66 description does not state anywhere that only those groups with an EP 66 permit can camp on Crocodile.

Because it is a dead-end and with limited campsites and only 1 permit per day, I understand why some would think/want the rule to be that only those with an EP 66 permit can camp on Crocodile. But the fact is the rules do not say this or even hint at this.

Regarding Cowdoc's point about exiting the wilderness, from conversations I've had with the USFS in Ely, you only exit the wilderness when you land your canoe at an EP, and physically get out of your canoe for a purpose OTHER than portaging. I asked this because of McFarland Lake which is 100% out of the BWCA. I asked if we could do a day trip from Pine Lake through McFarland to John or Little John. The answer was that doing so was not exiting the wilderness. They also said that crossing into Quetico whether on a daytrip or overnight was not exiting the wilderness. I see no difference between either of these and portaging/paddling to Alder from EP 64.

I guess I'm one of those glass half full types and believe if the rules do not explicitly say you can't do something, it is permitted. Those that are glass half empty types expect the rules to explicitly say what you can do and if they don't, then you can't do it.

here is a news article from 2004 that discusses the veggie chain.
news from 2004

quote Mocha: "I believe you can use the entry permit 66, enter at 64 and then go to crocodile and spend all your nights on that lake per the permit.
the 64 permit is to travel to the end of east bearskin through either arm, technically speaking, I think."

I missed this post earlier Mocha, and agree you are correct. As an outfitter, you are advising your clients properly. I was told the same by the folks at Clearwater last year.

If anyone camps on Croc with an EP 64 permit and gets checked, let us know how that turns out for you.

I will call the USFS office and get a written confirmation one way or the other......

I believe that anyone who takes the time and trouble to paddle to Crocodile Lake, from any EP in the area such as #60, 61, 62 and yes 64, can legally camp on any of the 4 official sites on Crocodile Lake. There is nothing in the written rules for any EP's that limit camping on Crocodile Lake.

The only written/documented restriction is that you must spend all nights on Crocodile Lake if you have an EP #66 permit and that it is permissible to access Crocodile Lake using EP #64 with an EP #66 permit.

I will post the written reply I get from the USFS.

Wow. Quite the Crocodile Lake aficionado we have here.

quote bmaines: "Wow. Quite the Crocodile Lake aficionado we have here."

Not an aficionado at all. I've never been to Crocodile Lake before. I'm just someone who is interested in visiting/fishing Crocodile someday and want to make sure that I know and understand the official rules so I and my group are legal. Unlike some, I do not assume or make my own interpretation of the rules to suit my needs. I research questionable rules and get answers from the source.

So, as promised, I wrote to the USFS in Ely, MN. I asked the following questions and received the following responses back from :

Ann Schwaller
Wilderness Specialist
Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness
Superior National Forest
Supervisor’s Office
Duluth, MN
218.626.4325

My questions are as follows:

1.) If we did get an EP #66 permit and camped all 6 nights on Crocodile Lake, could we paddle to other lakes in the area for daytrips as long as we returned to Crocodile Lake in the evening to camp/spend the night?

Ann's response: YES

2.) Assuming we can do daytrips to other lakes from Crocodile Lake with an EP #66 permit, we’d have to paddle through East Bearskin Lake to get to Canoe Lake or Alder Lake, or any others in the area. Since East Bearskin Lake is not within the boundaries of the BWCA, would this be ‘exiting’ the wilderness? I’m assuming this is similar to McFarland Lake which is also outside the BWCA. I checked last year and was told that paddling from Pine Lake to Little John, John, North or South Fowl Lakes, through McFarland Lake was NOT exiting the wilderness unless we get stop somewhere on McFarland Lake and physically got out of our canoes.

Ann's response (remember her response assumed you are camping on Crocodile Lake with an EP #66 permit): You can cross bearskin from Crocodile to continue on as long as you aren’t camping elsewhere or leaving to resupply. If it’s continuous travel, it’s ok. Usually it’s moving through the area and not day use. However, if you really want to cover your bases, grab a day use permit or two for when you truly feel you are using an area of the BW for the day. That way, your day use will be counted in our use figures, and when you return to crocodile, you still have your overnight permit. If you are stopped, where you are located will determine which permit you use. The whole idea is to make sure there is campsite availability based on the quota and the entry. And, capturing day use as well for management purposes. So all your use should be accounted for if you have both kinds of permits and use them in the right place.

3.) If we get an EP #60, 61, 62 or 64 permit can we paddle to Crocodile Lake to explore and fish? Could we spend a night or two camping on Crocodile Lake?

Ann's response: A 66 permit is for spending the night on Crocodile lake, so you might be taking a site from the quota issued for that lake. Usually people that get a 60 or 61 permit aren’t getting it to spend the night on crocodile, but going on to say Duncan/Daniels and Rose. 62 users usually go on ahead to Mountain and around to Pike and Pine. Your request is not a usual travel pattern. However, you can go anywhere you want once you’re inside the wilderness.

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, I understand why some interpret and want the rules to be that you can't camp on Crocodile Lake without an EP #66 permit. Ann's reply to my question bears this out too. However, the last sentence of her reply is really what's applicable. Bottom line is you absolutely CAN camp on Crocodile Lake with an EP permit other than EP #66, although they would prefer you didn't. Again, once in the BWCA on a valid permit, you are free to travel where you like within the BWCA and camp at any official site with a fire grate and toilet.

I'm not sure if I'll get to Crocodile Lake on one of my trips this year. Whether it's this year, next year or the year after, I will have a hard-copy printout of my email to the USFS and their official responses I got back to my questions, just in case a ranger had some of the same concerns that some in this thread had.

I would never just get an EP #66 permit because that would absolutely limit me and my group to staying all nights on Crocodile Lake. I'd probably just get an EP 64 permit, take a daytrip over to Crocodile and if it was not busy and the fishing was great, I might decide to legally spend a night or two before leaving to explore/fish/camp on other lakes in the area.

Thanks! I admire your legwork on this. Now, let's hope that Ann (person in office), talks to "Bob" (ranger in canoe).

quote cowdoc: "Thanks! I admire your legwork on this. Now, let's hope that Ann (person in office), talks to "Bob" (ranger in canoe)."

I would say that anyone planning to camp on Crocodile Lake with an EP permit other than #66 should print off a copy of this thread with Ann's email responses to show any Ranger who questions what you are doing.

I suspect that Rangers already know this too and that any who were confused, would drop the issue once you produced Ann's confirmation that you are legal.

I know I will have a copy on my person....

Also, this seems to be inconsistent with a recent question someone posed about exiting the BW and returning despite not resupplying.
(this thread)

I guess I'm still not clear if you're allowed to leave the actual boundary of the BWCA and re-enter it if your don't camp elsewhere or resupply.

Honestly, IMO, it seems to be well within the spirit of the rules to not have to get new permits if you happen to cross the boundary in the middle of your trip.

quote cycle003: "Honestly, IMO, it seems to be well within the spirit of the rules to not have to get new permits if you happen to cross the boundary in the middle of your trip. "

In this thread, EP 64 East Bearskin Lake was the subject on exiting the wilderness. Also, EP's 68,69 and 70 on McFarland Lake were also mentioned.

Both of the EP's and corresponding lakes (East Bearskin and McFarland) are entirely outside the borders of the BWCA. It is perfectly legal to paddle through East Bearskin or McFarland lake on you way from one BWCA lake to another.

Therer are many other lakes outside the boundaries of the BWCA that are EP's and you can paddle back and forth through them without having exited the wilderness. A couple others that come to mind are Moose Lake, and Snowbank Lake.

What would not be legal and would be considered exiting the wilderness is if you beached your canoe on either of these lakes and got out of your canoe onto shore whether you got in your vehicle to go resupply or not.

There is one exception to this. For instance on McFarland Lake, which again is 100% outside the boundaries of the BWCA, there is a portage at the far northwest end of the lake that takes you to East Pike Lake. Beaching your canoe and getting out on shore for the purpose of portaging to another lake within the BWCA is a legal exception. There are several portages in and out of Snowbank Lake as another example where portaging isn't exiting the wilderness.

I have also been told by the USFS in Ely that you can cross the border into Canada to visit Quetico and come back into the BWCA or your original permit. This is also not considered as exiting the wilderness.

How is that different from heavycanoe's question about day tripping to Alder? He was told that he would not be allowed to day trip outside the BWCA and return. bottom of thread

quote cycle003: "How is that different from heavycanoe's question about day tripping to Alder? He was told that he would not be allowed to day trip outside the BWCA and return. bottom of thread "

All I can tell you is that 'Mary' from the DNR was wrong when she told Heavycanoe he could not take a daytrip to Alder on an EP 66 permit.

The MN DNR has no jurisdiction for BWCA permits and was the wrong agency to call with this question.

The USFS is responsible for permits within the BWCA. I posted my reply in an earlier post on this thread from Ann with the USFS office in Ely, MN which clearly stated that daytrips through East Bearskin to and from Crocodile and Alder is perfectly fine and is not exiting the wilderness unless you stop and get out of your canoe on East Bearskin. You must paddle through to your destination lake to be legal.

There are several other lakes that are the same situation as East Bearskin - Snowbank, Moose, and McFarland are ones that come to mind. All of these are outside the BWCA and allow motorboat usage. All are on the edge of the BWCA like East Bearskin and all have lakes within the BWCA that border it on multiple sides. You must paddle through all these lakes getting into and out of the BWCA and through these lakes getting from one border lake within the BWCA to another border lake within the BWCA.

About 1/5th of East Bearskin is within the BWCAW.

FYI.

quote Tryg: "About 1/5th of East Bearskin is within the BWCAW.


FYI. "

Which map are you looking at? Some maps show all of East Bearskin outside the BWCA, some show some of the lake within the BWCA as you suggest.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I have no idea about the boundary. It is an EP with at least some, if not all, of the lake outside the BWCA so this discussion about exiting the wilderness is still applicable.

quote walllee: "

quote Grandma L: "So Crocidile Lake and the river are pretty much a dead end! Wow, what a waste."

Not if your a fisherman"

+1

Entered EP 64 East Bearskin last May for a four day trip and camped on Crocodile Lake the whole time. Had a great trip, beautiful scenery, good fishing and lots of wildlife. Didn't seem to bother any body. I am going to do it again...hope its legal. The whole question seems kind of silly...

Is the fishing on crocodile river / lake worth all this trouble?

quote lindylair: "Entered EP 64 East Bearskin last May for a four day trip and camped on Crocodile Lake the whole time. Had a great trip, beautiful scenery, good fishing and lots of wildlife. Didn't seem to bother any body. I am going to do it again...hope its legal. The whole question seems kind of silly..."

It is legal whether you had an EP 66 or EP 64 permit, or any other EP permit in the area.

However, if your plan was to camp all nights on Crocodile I'm thinking it would be better to get an EP 66 permit so you didn't prevent someone else getting one of the other EP permits.

With all due respect, my understanding is that you have to enter the BWCA from the entry point which you have a permit for. According to the entry point map on this site we were in the BWCA shortly after we started paddling on E. Bearskin and stayed in the BWCA the entire time up to and including the portage into Crocodile Lake. We were nowhere near the EP66 area which is miles away. I guess I don't get why there is any confusion around what we did. Now if you were going from Alder to Crocodile I would understand the confusion as you actually leave the BWCA for a short period of time. Even in this case though, I think common sense and the intent of the regulation should be considered. Seems to me that that particular rule was put in place to discourage folks from heading out of the BWCA, back to their car and driving to town or a nearby resort for a cocktail or resupply...now that is illegal.

quote lindylair: "With all due respect, my understanding is that you have to enter the BWCA from the entry point which you have a permit for. According to the entry point map on this site we were in the BWCA shortly after we started paddling on E. Bearskin and stayed in the BWCA the entire time up to and including the portage into Crocodile Lake. We were nowhere near the EP66 area which is miles away. I guess I don't get why there is any confusion around what we did. Now if you were going from Alder to Crocodile I would understand the confusion as you actually leave the BWCA for a short period of time. Even in this case though, I think common sense and the intent of the regulation should be considered. Seems to me that that particular rule was put in place to discourage folks from heading out of the BWCA, back to their car and driving to town or a nearby resort for a cocktail or resupply...now that is illegal. "

Again, what you did was within the rules.

However there are actually 2 established USFS entries into ep 66 crocodile lake. One is towards the eastern end of the lake and is accessed through the vegetable chain of lakes. The other ep 66 entry is through east bearskin lake. Both are ep 66.


My only point was that if you know that you are going to base camp all nights on crocodile lake then it is better to get an EP 66 permit which requires you to spend all nights on crocodile lake.

If you think you might spend a few nights on crocodile and a few nights on any other lake in the area, then get an EP 64 prrmit like you did.

LMB, did some research on entry point 66 and now I see what you are talking about. Was unaware of that prior to our trip...good to know as we plan to go back. Thanks for the insight!

quote lindylair: "LMB, did some research on entry point 66 and now I see what you are talking about. Was unaware of that prior to our trip...good to know as we plan to go back. Thanks for the insight! "

No problem. I had to do research too because of the conflicting stories I was reading on this and other threads about this ep.

This ep is unique compared to other EPs. It has 2 official entries and you must camp all nights on crocodile with this permit.

nm

I am going to ask for a EP65 ! Marc