Hello all! I'm in the process of selecting my first solo canoe. Ive spent a bunch of time on the water in tandem canoes and in solo kayaks. Ive paddled tandem canoes partly solo, but never paddled a solo canoe or been totally solo in a tandem. I paddle on rivers, streams, and in swamps where I live in Florida, and paddled rivers and lakes up north...

I want to do some solo camping trips so I don't have to rely on others for me to get into the woods. I plan on spending many more nights in the BWCA, on the NFCT, paddling Michigan rivers and streams ( original Home state for me), exploring the Adirondacks a little. Who knows what else I'll get into...

I'm a decent sized guy, around 220lbs average body weight. I'm in good shape usually although m recovering from a minor surgery and multiple injuries right now. I'm also 20lbs down on body weight and gaining it back quickly (depression weight loss, not a good weight loss). I normally travel pretty light but plan on bringing one of my dogs along or my toddler if she enjoys it when I start taking her out. Ive had some ankle and foot injuries that have slowly been taking away my desire and ability to backpack as I get older. I'm only 32...

My biggest problem is that (I think) I don't understand how much certain canoe design features affect certain performance aspects of canoeing. I get the general principle of rocker, but don't know if canoe X has too much or canoe Y has too little for my intended uses. I don't know how much tumblehome is enough, or maybe even too much...

And I'm also considering that learning to paddle a variety of ways with more strokes could probably have a large impact on how well I'm able to utilize design aspects of each canoe. And I don't know which ones will be good enough or if they will be lacking too much in any departments to make up for by paddling efficiently and all that stuff.

For you experienced solo guys, don't hesitate to correct me if I am misinformed.

I'm looking at a few canoes right now. Kevlar or some blend of Kevlar and carbon. Price isn't really a factor seeing how all of them will be fairly close in price if I get them as I would want them.

I really like the Northwind solo and the Keewaydin 14' and 15' solo canoes. I think those are probably my top picks at this time. Northstar Phoenix and Magic are on the list as well.


I plan on doing lots of day trips on small local streams and medium sized rivers, plenty of weekend camping trips, and at least one annual 2+ week wilderness trip with minimal gear. I don't plan on doing any whitewater stuff right now. My skills need to develop significantly before I ever try it, but I wouldn't rule it out in the years to come. I figured maybe the canoe should be sized appropriately for the lighter end of things and I should make the compromise to not bring a dog along. As of right now I'm leaning away from the Phoenix because I'm thinking maybe a canoe with lots of tumblehome would give me the best of both worlds by allowing me heel the canoe over on its side for extra maneuverability. If I'm correct, I shouldn't need so much rocker and could have a canoe that tracks better and goes faster.

Though maybe I'm really trying to cram too much use into one canoe. I also don't know how important that optimal load rating is... What is the difference in performance/safety between the max opium and the max capacity? How much does an inch or two of rocker affect tracking? How much of that lack of rocker can be overcame by learning proper strokes and leaning the boat on its side?

Unfortunately one canoe is all I get.

I think Ive lost my mind. I'm kinda overwhelmed feeling and don't have a way to paddle any of these canoes before I purchase unless I can somehow weasel a canoe trip to the BWCA this spring. That's highly unlikely considering I'm the primary caretaker for my daughter and the sole employee of my small business.

Any ideas that seem helpful? I'm definitely sticking with one of the canoes Ive mentioned above. Ive looked at most of the other names big and small I could find and didn't want to include them for one reason or another. Besides, I don't need another boat to make decisions even more difficult right now.

Pros and cons of each as I believe it applies to me:

Northwind solo: good all around boat from my research. Carries most gear, would allow me to bring a dog and gear. Might be a little on the big side for just me on little day trips with less than 10lbs of gear, but I don't know that for sure. I don't know if its easy to paddle heeled over or not. Doesn't seem like it would be as fast as the Kee 15' due to having more rocker and width but maybe I'm wrong. Also wonder if it would be as maneuverable as any of the other boats I'm considering... Getting around these tight waters is important to me for day trips. Ive got easy access to lots of tight, windy stuff in the woods near my home.

Northstar Phoenix: Oriented mostly for what I'll primarily be doing... River stuff around here. Can carry a good load, easily maneuverable. Downside is that it seems heavily rocketed and maybe not that good for use on lakes like I see in the BWCA. Could it be made to work there? I'm sure it could. Would it kinda suck compared to other boats? I'm guessing it would. But its just a guess. I'm almost crossing this boat off my list right now.

Keewaydin 14' solo: Speaking solely on capacity and sizing the boat, this sounds best for just me and whatever gear I would want for anything from day trips to long weekend camping. I travel light when I'm alone and could make this work for any amount of time I would be in the woods. It seems to be a well rounded boat for the types of uses I would put it through most often. My guess is its very well suited for the typical day trip and overnight/ weekend use I would use it for but I would probably want a longer boat for bigger waters and longer trips. The only downside I can think of is that if I get it I would be strictly limited to just myself and maybe light overnight trips with my daughter. Any of my dogs push weight well beyond the optimal load for the boat. If I add my daughter with much gear or when she grows some will push optimum load quick. But I'm not sure how much it really matters... This is the first boat I really wanted bad when considering a small solo for myself only. Tossing in the daughter or dog made me consider other boats. Then I learned about length affecting tracking and further considered the 15' solo. Later I learned of the Northstar solo and considered that heavily as well. And then I learned Swift boats are not being made in USA. Nothing against Canada, but I prefer to support my own countries economy when I have a chance. I know its trivial to many, but its important enough to me that I feel I should consider it.

Keewaydin 15' solo: Seems like it would be great for my daily/average uses locally as well as an excellent boat for anything else I would use it for. Not as maneuverable as the smaller version, but how much so? Will it make a big difference when I get into the smaller swamp streams and canals? Is this boat more easily maneuverable than the Northwind solo? I suspect it is, but by how much? Capacity seems excellent for just me, or me with my baby and enough gear for anything we would do together. Doesn't seem like a good boat for the dog though. Taking the dog with me is pretty important, but if I decide not to, I would prefer the smallest boat I can get away with. And again, not made in USA.

Northwind Magic: Longest boat I'm interested in, and has least rocker, but lots of tumblehome (I think). Would it still be a good choice for my swamps? I know it would be excellent for the BWCA trips and other such stuff. Could take the baby along and whatever gear, but no dog. Could be a really fun boat to paddle around on the medium sized rivers around here that I'll be doing most of my weekend camping on. I suspect the tumblehome would make it easily maneuverable, and I would likely be able to efficiently paddle upstream with its sleek design.

I'm a very detail oriented person. To me, life is in the details. I like to explore the finer points of my hobbies and become skillful in whatever I pursue. Usually I find that skill tends to be what makes something really enjoyable for me. Not because I end up having skill at something, but because it allows me to efficiently, easily practice something. Maybe that doesn't make much sense but its the only way I can say it at this time.

I guess my top picks would be Northwind Solo and Keewaydin 15 solo. I don't know enough about the magic to rule it out, and I don't know how well tripping with my dog would work so I'm not too firm on that as a super hard consideration for capacity. My dog might hate it. I don't want to take one that doesn't like it. And I might not like taking him either... I like to take one of them hiking, but he's never been in a canoe and doesn't like water much at all. He loves the woods though, and camping too. He and I sleep under the stars near a fire as often as possible.

Thanks in advance for any help y'all can offer.

Have you considered something bigger - like the Swift Shearwater? 220 plus dog plus gear might be a bit much for a Kee 15 (optimal range is 140-290)

If I went with the Keep 15 I wouldn't be bringing the dog unless it was just day trips with no gear except lunch...

The Northwind solo has the same capacity.

But the Northwind has the advantage of being a little shorter, made in USA, and a little lighter. It also has a little more rocker, but I'm not sure how much effect that has or what other differences n hull design there are that I don't know about.

Any input on that?

Email sent. ~JOE~

Thanks Joe, I replied via email. I look forward to hearing form you again.

Don't worry about Swifts not being American.. Bill and Wendy Swift are from western New York. Their daughter founded Collinsville Canoe and Kayak, a a Swift dealer.

Dave Yost, one of the Swift designers ( and the designer of the Keewaydin ) is from Rochester NY area. Some of the Swift consultants are similarly American. What is Canadian is the shop. They bought from Sawyer in Algonquin back some years ago and thats how they mostly woud up there.

The Kee 15 is a good sized boat for you. It spins pretty well when heeled.. You can heel it to the rail for a u turn, but tripping wouldn't call for that ( ejection of packs too!). Rocker is a design convention and two figures of the same number rarely mean the same shape. Sometimes its stepped rocker starting from near the middle, at other times its all near the end.

Tunblehome is sometimes good as in allowing you to get a nice vertical paddle plant but if the wide part of the hull is low toward the water, with a tuck gradually inward, you will not want to heel the boat.. when the wide point passes under you , the thing turtles. So boats with that feature of wide down low and a tuck over the whole 12 inches to the gunwale are meant to be paddled flat ( or flat ish).

Shouldered tumblehome is different, there is the wide point of the hull farther up the side. This allows you to heel the boat over and have a firm hold without going over. The Kee's predecessors had this and the Kee has a bit of it.

Dog. We had people at the Southwest Pennsylvania Solo Canoe Rendezvous( first weekend every June) test the Kee 14 and 15 with a large dog..Dog ran about 100 lbs. Even the 14 did OK but there wouldnt be much room for stuff. The person that tested both actually got the 14 as he was mostly going to day paddle. There surprisingly was ample room. The 14 is a little spinnier than the 15.

There are a couple more top notch New York builders too. Hemlock Canoes( south of Rochester) has the SRT and the Peregrine in your length range. Colden Canoe is building the Nomad.. they are right outside Buffalo


Folks that live in Western NY really are in the current nexus of solo canoe building.

Can't comment on the Northwind solo but from Ted's line up it looks most similar to the old Bell Merlin, which was more maneuverable than the Magic but an squinch slower.

The Merlin( a DY boat) was in the Solo Tripper ancestry of which the Keewaydin is DY's latest. My understanding is that DY's son is designing for Ted .. so you are in the same ball park. I don't think you can go wrong with either of your choices ( or Pauls Nomad also in the family tree)

That really sounds like the Kee 15 is getting an edge up. I'm gathering the impression that those optimal load range numbers are fairly conservative with the Kees. Do you have any idea what would happen with about 385lbs in the Kee 15 solo? I figure most of my playing around and heeling would be with day trip loads and no dog, or light over lighter and such playing on the rivers and in the swamps.

From looking at the picture of the inside of the Northwind Solo (on the Northstar website), I gather the tumblehome is spread over the whole 12", and the Kee 15 looks like it has more of a bulge towards the top or middle section. The pictures I'm lookin at may not give an accurate representation though. More likely, I don't know what I'm seeing. Would you say that's about correct?

I remember seeing a post from Bear Paulsen on a forum somewhere that alluded to the design of the Northwind Solo being a slightly larger Merlin.

I watched Charlie Wilson say in a video on line that the Keewaydin was the newest and best of the DY series. He seemed pretty impressed with it over all.

Of course best is always subjective.

I noticed the sides of the Northwind solo are a little lower than the Kee 15, does that sound correct to you? I was looking at the sheer numbers listed on the Northwind to get that idea. My thoughts are that this makes for a boat less likely to get blown around in the wind. But that's really someone else thought that I read on another forum. I have a hard time trusting any one person on the internet, but Ive seen a few of your posts and have come to believe you know a thing or two more than average about canoe design. Forgive me if I'm mistaken about anything I toss out.

If I took myself (@220), my big puppy (@120), and 45lbs of gear and food I could go for as long as I cared to. Do you think the Kee 15 solo could handle that comfortably on lakes such as those found in the BWCA? The nice thing about my dos is that I have a lighter option as well... Ive got a couple of 80-90lb dogs. I could take one with me if 30-40lbs makes a difference in boat selection. I really want to take a dog on long solo trips for company. They are all good dogs.

But not a necessity. I don't take one with me now, unless I hike, which I cant do much of anymore.

My impression is that the Kee would probably be a little more fun to play around in than the Northwind solo, but I could very well be making a false assumption too. I'm checking out the Hemlocks now...

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it greatly.

Archimedes principle is that weight of water displaced =weight of displacing vessel makes 385 in a 15 foot long canoe displace more than 4 inches of water.

Industry capacity on the Kee 15 is 425 lbs. 425 lb is the weight at which you will have six inches of freeboard.

Here is an illustration
http://www.myccr.com/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=38765

Optimum load range is the weight at which the boat will perform best as the designer intended. There is about a 10 percent difference at which you won't notice anything. So that brings the max on the Kee 15 to about 420 lbs.

You can see if you dump both dogs in the boat you will need a bigger boat. Then you're going to have to think tandem again like the Hemlock Eaglet.

The Northwind being the same size boat is not going to perform mathematical miracles.

I've not paddled the two side by side . If Ted comes east in June to the Rendezvous, that's the best chance of that happening..

Bear and Charlie are both in a position to give comparisons..They are both valid. Of course its possible that after all the research, you find you just don't like the boat!

Thanks for the info. I can't the get link copy and paste, so forgive me if the info contained in the link would've answered some of my questions.

That 10% going unnoticeable was a significant contributor to my inability to make a decision.

Sorry for the confusion, I definitely don't have any interest in taking two dogs in a canoe at once, I have 4 dogs. Any of them would be good dogs to take on a trip, just one at a time...

I'm wondering how Ted claims the Northwind solo could have 6" of freeboard at 700lbs while the max capacity of the Keewaydin 15 solo is only 425lbs. Those are the numbers listed on the manufacturers websites so I would assume they are fairly accurate, given that they both appear to be well known and trusted names in the industry.

Do you have any input to offer about the sheer on the northwind vs the Kee 15? Do you think my assumption that the Northwind solo would be less affected by the wind is correct? Would there be any down sides to less sheer? Sheer is one of the terms I had a hard time finding an explanation of that I grasped enough to get the knowledge I was looking for. It seemed to mean the height of the sides of the hull.

Also, am I missing something or is your figure on the Kee 15 using the 10% factor a miscalculation? I would gather that from a 290lb max optimal load rating, adding 10% (29lbs if max is used to calculate) would bring the max optimal load to about 320lbs.

With the 10% factor for the Northwind solo, using max optimal load rating as part of the calculation, I gather a 350lb load wouldn't be unreasonable for that boat to handle comfortably. That's pretty darn close to what I'm wanting for an absolute max, especially if I take one of the smaller dogs on my longer trips or plan my food bag a little better.

Of course, the Kee 15 is very close to that as well. I don't know why, but I find the KEe 15 more appealing than the Northwind solo. I keep wanting to find ways to make that boat be the one I pick. Of course that's a purely emotional appeal and I can't explain it, or justify it and am hesitant to allow that to happen for that reason.

I feel like I'm splitting hairs on capacity here, but that is seeming to be the most important factor for me to settle right now. I really wouldn't want to get a boat that is super tippy or unresponsive when fully loaded with the gear/dog I want to take with me.

What happens to these canoes when you load them beyond what they are optimal with, but below max capacity?

Something tells me I won't be able to make this decision without paddling both of them...

Thank you for all your time explaining this to me.

No Osprey or Shearwater on the list?

quote Cedarboy: "No Osprey or Shearwater on the list?"

The Osprey is a little flatter bottom but has the same limitations of a 15 foot solo.

The Shearwater is big. I have a friend that has one and he says after 300 lbs it gets logy. Its certainly bigger than the others mentioned.

I just roughed the approximate ten percent. But the farther you push weights, the less freeboard you have for safety. I have paddled with 400 lbs in a 15 foot solo in the Gulf of Mexico, it has two to three foot chop mostly and wouldn't do it again if I had a choice.

And I did have a spray cover. That is something to consider but I have never tried to stuff my Golden under one.

Yes the best test is to test paddle. With all the gear you expect to take.. ( that is the hard part for me! fake packing!)

I was just reading in another post you made that you have a wildfire... I believe the Northstar Phoenix is related to that pretty closely. What would you think about applyn that boat to my requirements?

For me, the hardest part of paddling them is finding a place to do it. Living in Florida I don't get much opportunity unless it involved driving long distances and making it take several days-a week to accomplish. At that effort, it better be the right boat or I wasted a bunch of money playing in the water with a bot I don't want, and I can do that here without wasting a bunch of money.

I fake pack all the time. I blame the Army for that habit. They always made us pack our gear and do inspections prior to training events. Sometimes just to do it. My Dad did the same thing to me as a kid.... Practice packing to cram 10lbs of gear into a 5lb sack.

I like the WildFire and use it for tripping but at 13'9"( pay attention to waterline length which is almost never the LOA) its pretty short. I am short. It allows me to have a good vertical stroke but I don't have long arms. I use it in front of my house on the lake for day tripping and FreeStyle but in tripping for a few days I have to pack carefully.

Taller guys usually go for a longer boat. Again that Archimedes..with his immovable principle.

Its a great boat for Florida day paddling ie Juniper would be no issue at all.

You'd have to be pretty careful on big lakes.. Wild has significant stern rocker so trim is important.

WildFire

Here is the wooden cousin to the WildFire with me no gear and one Golden

WildFire loaded for a five day trip. Lots of camera gear. The big Ostrom pack is too big to fit below the gunwales.



Nomad in the Everglades. That's a 7 gal water jug..full.



DY in the Kee 14 plug..outfitted as pack canoe.

The reason I asked about the wildfire is the Northstar Phoenix is supposed to be a longer wildfire and it was one of the original canoes on my list. Its a 14' solo rive boat with symmetrical rocker.

How was the glades trip? Ive been considering doing some exploring down there after I get some time in paddling these waters around here. How do you think the Kee 15 would do on juniper run? Ive canoes, swam, and walked that juniper creek a bunch of times, years ago. I used to live real close and spent most weekend on that creek for a year or so before I joined the Army.

Now I would like to explore the Santa Fe river, Suwannee River, Ocklawaha River, and various springs and swamps near home. I live near Gainesville, FL these days...

I hate to say it, but you guys are giving me a headache.....chuckle

What makes you say that AW? Of course, I'm a specialist in giving headaches... You should ask my mom, who is staying with me to take care of my daughter while I recover from surgery this week... She's ready to lose her mind and run off into the woods screaming.

quote awbrown: "I hate to say it, but you guys are giving me a headache.....chuckle

"

Take a canoe, better yet two and call me in the morning! I am having my headache..trying to learn Photoshop and its just Elements!

Now lets make all northerners cabin fever worse.. I have done Juniper in the Peregrine ( much straighter keeled than the Kee), dodged about thirty out of control canoes with a kids church group( nice to see them outside) and the Merlin II.. it worked just fine. Less fine was the run we did in May..low water we hit everything in a 16 foot Penobscot tandem

We'll be back in Feb. Ochlockonee River first, Suwanee down by Cedar Key second and then the Everglades. I'll be bringing a 17.5 foot long Mad River Monarch so no Juniper this time. Other boat will be a Rapid Fire.

To me most Florida waters sound like mouthwash gargle! ( sorry not meant to be insulting.). and I would like to do the Ocklawaha. Have one Silver many times.

Wonder if Naked Ed still is on the Santa Fe? I stopped by there a few years ago and he was cold and not nekkid.

Naked Ed was still there last tie I was through there... Most Florida waters are pretty much mud holes in my opinion too.

I wonder... Where are you coming from? If you're coming from near a Swift dealer that had a canoe I wanted to buy would you be willin to bring it down and meet me along the way? I'd be willing to pay you if it is something you would do and it could work out..

Ive got a friend that lives on the Suwannee near High Springs and a family member with a condo near the mouth of the Suwannee in some little town over that way near the Gulf. Part of my concern with canoe buying has been the getting it part.

Oops, caught a mistake in my late post, friend lives on Santa Fe river near high springs. Family member has condo on Suwannee...

sorry we will be towing a travel trailer and have two canoes already on the truck roof

A third would require another trailer.. and that would be weird. Plus we are going to be on our first ever travel trailer tow. You don't want us to bring anything..
Swift will ship. I suggest talking to Bill..

Ok, thanks for the suggestion. I'll give them a call and see how it goes. Maybe I'll end up owning a canoe here in the next few weeks. I would like to get on and paddle it around close to home as much as possible before I end up in the wilderness or with a lot of tome and money invested in a long trip with it.

What kind of trip are you doing in the Glades? I like the idea of exploring big swamps and think I need to learn about the Everglades a little so I can plan my own trip down there one day before it gets to be Summer again.

I think having a solo canoe would give me the chance to appreciate Florida a little more than I do now. I'm looking forward to seeing more of what this states natural settings have to offer.

Would anyone care to try to talk me out of buying the boat...

FINALLY decided on the boat. And I'm getting lucky and getting a slightly expedited order due to other boats already heading my way.

Swift Keewaydin 15 solo
Kevlar fusion with the Carbon Kevlar trim
Clear coat, no fancy colors
I'm getting some foam kneeling pads they sell with it

Stilt slightly undecided about the sliding seat. I'm wondering if its worth the extra pound and a quarter (or maybe it was just a pound) of weight it adds to the boat with the trim package I'm selecting. With the CK trim the seat doesn't have hangers, it is molded directly to the sides of the hull. I suspect its more rigid molded in like that, but I don't know for sure at this moment.

Thanks for all the help you folks have given me in my search, especially you yellowcanoe.

Congratulations!

Everglades requires you to leave doggies home. Its probably just as well. Aside from the beaches there isn't much room for them to run at ground campsites or chickees.

People that have sliding seats love them. I find them not necessary. There are other ways to adjust trim.

The Withlacoochee, Rainbow ( don't miss that one),Wekiva ( over by Cedar Key), Chassahowitzka are all great . Wacissa too.

I use the book Canoeing and Kayaking Florida by Johnny Molloy quite a bit.

Congrats! Make sure to share some pics. I have a Shearwater with a sliding seat, and I do really like it.

I'll have to find that book. Thanks yellowcanoe.

I'm already planning trips on the Suwannee, Santa Fe, Itchetucknee, Ocklawaha River, Silver river, Withlacooche is on the list, Everglades, and looking for more. I keep wanting to paddle the AuSable and a few other Michigan rivers. Northern Forest Canoe Trail is something I'm learning about now as well.

And of course, the BWCA. Maybe one day I'll even meet some members from here out there in the real world in a canoe somewhere.

I don't have a problem leaving the dog at home on a 'glades trip... Most likely the dog will get left home a lot in Florida. I don't want to feed the gators. I like to swim and explore. He might just draw attention.

Frenchy, I'll make sure to post some pictures. My plan is to take it out as soon as possible after I get it. They told me they would expedite building it and get it shipped with another load that's already going to Florida this month so that's super cool. I don't know if that means I'll get it within a few days of then or a few weeks of then, but at least I know when it will be delivered to the shipping company.

I also decided fixed seat. I have a weird philosophy about moving parts. The Army showed me how easy it is to break really sturdy things. Typically, things with fewer moving parts lasted longer than things with more moving parts. The fixed seat design appears to be stronger, but also easier to repair should something break... It leaves what appears to be a design readily adaptable to field expedient repairs. And its lighter weight.

quote FLDoug: "I'll have to find that book. Thanks yellowcanoe.


I'm already planning trips on the Suwannee, Santa Fe, Itchetucknee, Ocklawaha River, Silver river, Withlacooche is on the list, Everglades, and looking for more. I keep wanting to paddle the AuSable and a few other Michigan rivers. Northern Forest Canoe Trail is something I'm learning about now as well.


And of course, the BWCA. Maybe one day I'll even meet some members from here out there in the real world in a canoe somewhere.


I don't have a problem leaving the dog at home on a 'glades trip... Most likely the dog will get left home a lot in Florida. I don't want to feed the gators. I like to swim and explore. He might just draw attention.


Frenchy, I'll make sure to post some pictures. My plan is to take it out as soon as possible after I get it. They told me they would expedite building it and get it shipped with another load that's already going to Florida this month so that's super cool. I don't know if that means I'll get it within a few days of then or a few weeks of then, but at least I know when it will be delivered to the shipping company.


I also decided fixed seat. I have a weird philosophy about moving parts. The Army showed me how easy it is to break really sturdy things. Typically, things with fewer moving parts lasted longer than things with more moving parts. The fixed seat design appears to be stronger, but also easier to repair should something break... It leaves what appears to be a design readily adaptable to field expedient repairs. And its lighter weight."

I like the adjustable, but if I were buying new, I would go fixed for the reasons you mentioned. I am just waiting for my seat to let me down...then again, I am a Vikings fan, so I must be wired that way.