In Quetico my routine is dig a cat hole, do my business, wipe and then burn the TP with a BIC lighter I keep in the handle of my iPood before covering the hole. I would like to add toilet wipes to my "routine" but I'm not going to be able burn a wet toilet wipe. I've looked on Consumer Reports and they claim flushable wipes aren't flushable. So my question is, does anyone know of a toilet wipe which is biodegradable enough that I wouldn't feel bad about leaving it in the cat hole?

Coleman says theirs degrade in 21 days. The ones I buy at Walmart say on the label that they're 97% biodegradable. I've never actually tested one.

Not being critical, just curious, but do you ever worry about burning your TP back in the woods instead of by the firepit.....or at least out on the rocks. I'm not big on the idea of having used TP around the fire pit/cooking area, and if done out on the rocks somewhere, I suspect we will start finding half burned chunks of TP all around, but the idea of burning TP over the cat hole with all that "fuel" around seems worrisome, unless you are drenching the hole.
I have used the Coleman wipes.......can't say I went back a month later to see how the degradation process was coming along. If alcohol was one of the main ingredients in the wipe, I would suspect it would burn halfway decent. Maybe do a test run.
I realize the dilema but have not yet settled on a great answer.

I wonder how they test the biodegradability of the wipes. As I've seen toilot paper that has been dug up that is still intact after a significant amount of time (more than a month).

I would worry about buring the TP in areas where the soil is more roots and other orgnic material as it could cause an underground fire.

According to the ranger (2013) Quetico asks that you either burn TP (in the fire pit) or pack it out. I assume the same applies to wipes.

I think your only option is to fold-up enough TP and wet it, like a wipe. I mean, is not moisture content the big advantage to wipes; cleaning your bung better than TP? I've used damp TP in a fix. The danger is breakthrough, of course. So one must pat, rather than wipe.

Yours always,

Dr. Stool

I don't worry about burning the TP over the cat hole. You can burn TP to ash quite well with a lighter and then you cover the ash with dirt. Almost zero chance of starting a fire, underground or otherwise, if you're careful. I've never actually tried to burn toilet wipes, I just assumed they wouldn't burn to ash because they're wet. .
--Ken

quote Banksiana: "According to the ranger (2013) Quetico asks that you either burn TP (in the fire pit) or pack it out. I assume the same applies to wipes."

I'd prefer to avoid carrying used TP and toilet wipes around in my portage packs but that is an option. An OPSAK would be the way to go for that option.
--
Ken

It takes 30 days for biodegradable diapers to turn to dirt, so I would assume that biodegradable toilet wipes would take a lot less time

quote OldFingers57: "I wonder how they test the biodegradability of the wipes. As I've seen toilot paper that has been dug up that is still intact after a significant amount of time (more than a month).

I would worry about buring the TP in areas where the soil is more roots and other orgnic material as it could cause an underground fire. "

I'm trying to figure out WHY you would dig up toilet paper????

It really has been a long winter...seriously?

Starting an underground fire...with TP? Are you for real?
Why would you dig up TP? Do you really think it was on purpose?

I burn them in the fire pit.

Bio wipes..dry, add your own liquid for a wet wipe.

Bio wipes

You probably won't find alcohol in wet wipes for your bum...otherwise you would hear people in the woods shrieking right after breakfast time.

quote JackpineJim: "

quote OldFingers57: "I wonder how they test the biodegradability of the wipes. As I've seen toilot paper that has been dug up that is still intact after a significant amount of time (more than a month).


I would worry about buring the TP in areas where the soil is more roots and other orgnic material as it could cause an underground fire. "

I'm trying to figure out WHY you would dig up toilet paper????"

Well it sure wasn't on purpose. LOL! But it has happened accidently.
Someone did some research on the biodegration of TP and Poop awhile back and there was an article on it in Backpacker magazine. Someone actually took a bunch of craps and timed them out of when to dig them up to see what was going on with the TP and poop. Plus there was another study of different types of TP. On that one they found a lot of the so called biodegradable stuff lasted just as long as the regular TP.

i don't dig a hole i put a rock over it as suggested by the "old ranger" at the prairie portage many years ago.
checking the next spring after a fall trip,zero....everything gone.
test worked so i do that all the time now.

I did some research on the biodegradable TP. This stuff is designed with short fiber lengths to break down by falling apart faster. It was designed to be in gray water tanks of RVs and septic systems where there is lots of water. Also the reason it biodegrades down faster is due to the high amount of bacteria in the septic systems.
So in our cases out in the field where we are digging catholes, there isn't that much bacteria (only in the top 6 inches of soil) and there isn't a lot of water either. So it's not going to break down as fast.
According to websites like Leave No Trace and other groups, they suggest you pack out your TP and especially your Wet Wipes. On some of those sites they again warn against burning the TP in the cathole as it may cause a wildland fire.

A simply google search on biodegradable toilet wipes will return lots of options/brands.

So if you prefer wet wipes to dry toilet paper, you have a biodegradable option. Dig the hole, do your business and bury the tp/wipes in it. Within a reasonable amount of time, there will be no trace.

There is no way that I'm carrying used, nasty, stinking tp/wipes back to the firepit at camp. It's going in the hole right when I'm done with it.

And I certainly wouldn't spend one second longer than necessary over the hole, smelling the nasty crap (literally) just to burn the tp/wipes in the hole. It's getting covered as fast as I can do it once I'm done.

Clearly one just needs to carry napalm.

quote wetcanoedog: "i don't dig a hole i put a rock over it as suggested by the "old ranger" at the prairie portage many years ago.
checking the next spring after a fall trip,zero....everything gone.
test worked so i do that all the time now."

Actually, there is a good reason for this. Leaving the feces and TP exposed to the elements will promote much faster degradation. Particularly UV radiation and precipitation are the primary degrading factors. Burying paper will slow its degradation.

The vast majority of wet wipes contain plastic fibers, be it polyester or some other type. While some mfrs may use things like corn starch as a binder, the main material itself really doesn't compost. What mostly happens is that the fibers fall apart and scatter in the wind. We may not be able to see them, but they are there nonetheless.

Best practice is to pack out such items

quote LuvMyBell: "A simply google search on biodegradable toilet wipes will return lots of options/brands."

Yes, but there are lots of brands CLAIMING to be biodegradable/flushable that really are not.
I gotta agree with you on the fire pit burning. One of the first rules of hygiene is keeping the output away from the input. Sometimes I think some of these NOLS, Leave No Trace etc. "experts" have abandoned common sense.
--Ken

quote kenf: "

quote LuvMyBell: "A simply google search on biodegradable toilet wipes will return lots of options/brands."

Yes, but there are lots of brands CLAIMING to be biodegradable/flushable that really are not.
I gotta agree with you on the fire pit burning. One of the first rules of hygiene is keeping the output away from the input. Sometimes I think some of these NOLS, Leave No Trace etc. "experts" have abandoned common sense.
--Ken
"

Good point about manufacturers claims.......

i'll stick with the "old ranger".under that rock the next year there was nothing but bugs.
a buddy who went to the Q with me and is really into all the new ways of doing things read in a outdoor magazine that the best thing to do was spread your crap around on a rock where the sun would dry it out and so on..i had to shut him up when that young ranger who is there now turned his back to get something......
i think the uv treatment is ment for folks out west where it is dry and there is not much in the ground to "eat it up".
however you do it really do it someplace that is not right in the camp or the path to the box or woodlot.i get the impression that people are afraid of the woods more than just lazy.

Yes but where are they biodegradable at? Do they just look at them biodegrading in septic tanks and gray water tanks on RVs or in soil out in the woods? Heck even some plastics are considered biodegradable but it takes years for it to occur.

I just tried a small test of leaving a clump of regular toilet paper outside in the back yard next to a clump of Coleman Biodegradable toilet paper for the Winter. Just now I went to check on them and found the regular toilet paper to be pretty much in the same condition to how it started vs. the Biodegradable kind... which I couldn't pick up because it had started to decompose.

quote Trailswag: "I just tried a small test of leaving a clump of regular toilet paper outside in the back yard next to a clump of Coleman Biodegradable toilet paper for the Winter. Just now I went to check on them and found the regular toilet paper to be pretty much in the same condition to how it started vs. the Biodegradable kind... which I couldn't pick up because it had started to decompose."

OF course this was above ground and you aren't going to be doing that out in the backcountry. You are going to be digging a cat hole and put the TP in it. So it's not going to be exposed to the elements like snow and rain.

I guess it comes down to what side of the argument you stand on with burying vs. leaving exposed vs. burning. I've seen all three being done in the backcountry.

Leave No Trace does not advocate leaving TP lying about on top of the ground. I doubt if any parks advocate it either. Most either say bury it or pack it out. In fact some places you have to pack out your waste too.

quote OldFingers57: "Leave No Trace does not advocate leaving TP lying about on top of the ground. I doubt if any parks advocate it either. Most either say bury it or pack it out. In fact some places you have to pack out your waste too. "

Do you have an example of a place that requires you to pack out your waste. I've never heard of anything so rediculous. I want to add such a place to my list of places never to visit or support.

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote OldFingers57: "Leave No Trace does not advocate leaving TP lying about on top of the ground. I doubt if any parks advocate it either. Most either say bury it or pack it out. In fact some places you have to pack out your waste too. "

Do you have an example of a place that requires you to pack out your waste. I've never heard of anything so rediculous. I want to add such a place to my list of places never to visit or support."

The NPS requires it packed out in the Grand Canyon and I wouldn't be surprised if Bryce Canyon requires it as well. It's also a good idea in any arid environment like deserts and above the tree line. It really doesn't decompose or takes years to decompose in those environments.

I say, just pack it out. It's not adding any extra weight to your pack.

Field and Stream's May edition on pg 50 has a section on making a poop tube out of 4" pvc. Had to read it a couple of times before it really sunk in that people that do this are carrying a tube of human feces around with them. No specifics on locations where it's required other than "it's the mantra of many wilderness areas including popular rivers".

If a product is advertised biodegradable I can't believe the over regulation of govt parks wouldn't have some approved TP/Wipes that they are OK with folks using. Maybe I could make my millions by bagging up little poop and paper eating bacteria that you would sprinkle over your completed "job" and then cover with dirt - to speed up the process. Take the little bag back to camp and burn it or carry it out, the rest stays in the hole where it belongs.

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote OldFingers57: "Leave No Trace does not advocate leaving TP lying about on top of the ground. I doubt if any parks advocate it either. Most either say bury it or pack it out. In fact some places you have to pack out your waste too. "

Do you have an example of a place that requires you to pack out your waste. I've never heard of anything so rediculous. I want to add such a place to my list of places never to visit or support."

Here's some: packing it out

Canyonlands, Grand Canyon, Zion, and some other parks out West

No matter what you do in the Quetico, just make sure you do it WAY back in the woods. Nothing worse than going back thirty yards and finding waste and TP strewn about.

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote OldFingers57: "Leave No Trace does not advocate leaving TP lying about on top of the ground. I doubt if any parks advocate it either. Most either say bury it or pack it out. In fact some places you have to pack out your waste too. "

Do you have an example of a place that requires you to pack out your waste. I've never heard of anything so rediculous. I want to add such a place to my list of places never to visit or support."

+1 That's taking things too far to be fun anymore. I'm remembering George Carlin talking about why people say "I'm going to take a sh**" He said, "Don't you want to LEAVE a sh**?" I guess in some areas you really do have to "take" it.

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote OldFingers57: "Leave No Trace does not advocate leaving TP lying about on top of the ground. I doubt if any parks advocate it either. Most either say bury it or pack it out. In fact some places you have to pack out your waste too. "

Do you have an example of a place that requires you to pack out your waste. I've never heard of anything so rediculous. I want to add such a place to my list of places never to visit or support."

I really think the opposite would be true in some cases. That said, it is a thought to consider before camping in the Grand Canyon. It is NOT ridiculous! Inconvenient, gross, etc... But hardly ridiculous.

quote LuvMyBell:
Do you have an example of a place that requires you to pack out your waste. I've never heard of anything so rediculous. I want to add such a place to my list of places never to visit or support."

There is a rationale for the rules on waste disposal (pack it out) in some areas. It is well reasoned and not just bureaucrats looking for additional activities to regulate.

One may not recognize the decomposition challenges in arid or cold climates if one lives in a place with adequate heat, precipitation and soil moisture. The soil micro-organisms require water to carry out their metabolic processes, and in the eastern half of the US, organic waste can easily be broken down in a summer.

In the southwestern US, soil moisture is lacking for most of the year. The lower density of soil micro-organisms has a limited window in which to act on organic waste. In most cases, the waste will simply dry out and remain in place year after year. In frequently used public areas, this would result in an accumulation of dried human waste that the micro-organisms could never decompose.

Similarly, heat has an effect on the rate of metabolism and cold alpine areas have very low decomposition rates. Frequently visited alpine areas would also tend to accumulate organic waste, hence the requirement to pack it out.

quote thebotanyguy: "

quote LuvMyBell:
Do you have an example of a place that requires you to pack out your waste. I've never heard of anything so rediculous. I want to add such a place to my list of places never to visit or support."

There is a rationale for the rules on waste disposal (pack it out) in some areas. It is well reasoned and not just bureaucrats looking for additional activities to regulate.


One may not recognize the decomposition challenges in arid or cold climates if one lives in a place with adequate heat, precipitation and soil moisture. The soil micro-organisms require water to carry out their metabolic processes, and in the eastern half of the US, organic waste can easily be broken down in a summer.

In the southwestern US, soil moisture is lacking for most of the year. The lower density of soil micro-organisms has a limited window in which to act on organic waste. In most cases, the waste will simply dry out and remain in place year after year. In frequently used public areas, this would result in an accumulation of dried human waste that the micro-organisms could never decompose.


Similarly, heat has an effect on the rate of metabolism and cold alpine areas have very low decomposition rates. Frequently visited alpine areas would also tend to accumulate organic waste, hence the requirement to pack it out.
"

I read and understand your well-reasoned arguments. Howeveryou didn't provide a specific park or tourist area where you are required to pack out your human waste.


My original statement still stands that I would never visit such a place.

quote LuvMyBell:

Howeveryou didn't provide a specific park or tourist area where you are required to pack out your human waste.

Some areas requiring packing out of human waste:

Vermilion Cliffs National Monument
Canyonlands
Grand Teton National Park
Mt. Baker (Washington)
Mt. Whitney
Some areas of Zion National Park
Green River (Utah)
Rivers in North America

These are just a few that I found in 10 minutes of searching. If you are concerned about meeting the requirement, certainly a web search of areas you are planning to visit will yield information prior to traveling there, and one can then decide accordingly.

LuvMyBell: "Do you have an example of a place that requires you to pack out your waste."

St. Croix Natl. Scenice Riverway.
"A Lower River Camping Permit is required if camping between St. Croix Falls, WI and north of Stillwater, MN. This free permit requires that you read and understand the regulations including that you need to bring a portable toilet with you for use."

Do you have an example of a place that requires you to pack out your waste. I've never heard of anything so rediculous. I want to add such a place to my list of places never to visit or support."


Here's some: packing it out


Canyonlands, Grand Canyon, Zion, and some other parks out West"

I had this posted that listed some of the places plus the ones listed in the article.

Yes, the pack it out rules are in place for many western parks, especially those with a high volume of visitors. Folks would stop at campsites only to find them littered with hundreds of piles of human waste. As others have said, it has a longer shelf life in arid climates.

Mentioned it before. Quetico asks that all TP (or wipes for that matter) be burned or packed out.

quote OldFingers57: "Leave No Trace does not advocate leaving TP lying about on top of the ground. I doubt if any parks advocate it either. Most either say bury it or pack it out. In fact some places you have to pack out your waste too. "

That's right, one example is Roanoke River platform canoe camping. Water trail, paddle from platform to platform, take it with you.

quote AndySG: "
Yes, the pack it out rules are in place for many western parks, especially those with a high volume of visitors. Folks would stop at campsites only to find them littered with hundreds of piles of human waste. As others have said, it has a longer shelf life in arid climates. "

I remember from my Leave No Trace Instructor class that I took out at Philmont that it also has something to do with the soil also. I believe lack of organisms in it that will break the waste down. They used to recommend "Smearing" the waste on rocks as then the Sun would kill off the bad stuff and the wind, rain and snow would break it down.

quote AndySG: "
Yes, the pack it out rules are in place for many western parks, especially those with a high volume of visitors. Folks would stop at campsites only to find them littered with hundreds of piles of human waste. As others have said, it has a longer shelf life in arid climates. "

I remember from my Leave No Trace Instructor class that I took out at Philmont that it also has something to do with the soil also. I believe lack of organisms in it that will break the waste down. They used to recommend "Smearing" the waste on rocks as then the Sun would kill off the bad stuff and the wind, rain and snow would break it down.

I consider having made it to the end of this thread one of my greater accomplishments.

quote Jeriatric: "I consider having made it to the end of this thread one of my greater accomplishments."

I laughed out loud at this!!!!

Packed out TP and wipes during a backpacking trip in Zion NP. Left the waste in a cathode as advised by the LNT video. Double ziploc method worked well.

I believe river rafting trips in Grand Canyon require packing it ALL out.

Yes, on the Colorado river you need to pack out everything also over on the Green River I believe.

No wonder I make it a habit of avoiding those types of places.

Poo packing is something I avoid in my travels.........

Saw a poop tube for sale at the Expo... youngest kiddo was fascinated. People poop? Yep. With a 'biner to attach tube to your belt. Kid said NO thank you. She will learn!