Pondering using the double bladed propulsion device, how does one choose the right fit/size? What do you look for or away from? Used while soloing a tranquility, and/or why you don't would also be applicable. Thanks

Any solo canoe less than 30 inch width is a prime candidate for a kayak paddle. Choosing to use one is a personal choice.

For me personally, I like the double blade when I solo. I feel I have more control and can 'motor' faster.

I use a Foxworx 280 cm double blade to power a Prism. perfect match.
Styled similar to their current K3 kayak paddle. Scored a 'seconds' at discounted price a few years ago. Not any issues with it, at all.

For comparison, when I paddle a sit-in yak, I use a 240 cm paddle.

I use a double and have gotten to where it is the only paddle I use. You will get advice on getting a long one to prevent dripping on your lap. This does help keep you dry. When you have been paddling hard for hours with that long double and you get that burn in the muscles in your back you will know why I use a shorter one.

I have only taken a solo to the BW twice, and I've chosen the Kayak paddle both times. We find that the Solo has no issue keeping up with the tandem canoes, usually they are faster. (We have always brought a regular paddle with and use it when fishing)

Sure. Get as light a double as possible. You do have to hold it up all day. Also avoid ones with heavy blades. An ounce way out there matters more than an ounce closer in.

Go as short as you can. My solos are under 28 inch wide, and I use 230 or 240.

I do prefer a single blade except when conditions are so bad I need instant braces on both sides.

Love them all (long straight, bent carbon ect ) but when it comes to touring and making good time and covering lots of water I love the double, mine is a custom made 22oz 2 piece carbon rig made by Pat @ ONNO 245-255cm (adjustable length), works great with the Magic as it's only 23" at the gunwales.Now that I have tripped with one I wouldn't do it any other way, far and away the best way to trip, at least for me.

Link to my write up on the ONNO

Fitting the right paddle involves applying basic principles. Longer shafts lend better to low angle paddling and can be quite fast, but not have the power on directional control of the higher angle approach. That calls for a shorter paddle but in a canoe is certain to result in drip onto legs. The longer you paddle the more weight matters, lower weight equals higher price tags. Larger blades equal more power, but also can be tiring over a long day of paddling unless you are in good conditioning. Shafts can be round or oval and straight or bent. A bent slightly oval shaft gives a nice grip and sense of paddle/blade orientation. Fit yourself into those ideas and then what overall length and combination allows good blade contact without the shaft getting wet. If you are willing to look the paddle you seek is out there. I think these principles fit flat water paddling, but if you want to do some whitewater river stuff then that is another story.
Most of my paddling is an element of my overall wellness program and involves 2-6 hour and 2-3 times per week extended paddles up and down local rivers or lakes. For that I paddle either my 14'6" Tsunami or when warmer the Magic using a 230 Werner Corryvrecken bent shaft paddle. At Canoecopia I will be looking for a shorter single blade as backup when tripping.

"bhouse46" has has covered the "science" of the double bladed paddle quite well. Not much I can add other than my own observations from personal usage.

After a lot deliberation about using a K1 paddle in my solo canoe, I added a double-bladed paddle to my paddle selection last spring. I purchased a 240cm Werner double-bent Skagit Carbon reinforced nylon paddle for use in my Wenonah Voyager, Jensen C1W, and my Sawyer solo canoes.

I purchased the Skagit on Sale @ erehwon for $206.97, which was half the price of the Kalliste & Camano. Although it's a decent paddle, I wish I had gone for a Camano or Kalliste carbon paddle.

For many paddlers, the Skagit Carbon reinforced nylon paddle would probably be adequate, but I should have known better. After paddling with a 215cm Werner Cyprus carbon paddle in my Delta 18.5 Expedition K1, the Skagit feels somewhat "clunky", for lack of a better description. A classic example of "you get what you pay for". (The price of the Camano and Kalliste are twice that of the Skagit for a reason.)

Then again, the majority of the time I use a carbon double-bent canoe paddle in my solos, and the Skagit was intended to be a part-time solution for long stretches of BWCAW-Quetico lake touring.

The carbon performance core & carbon performance paddles by Werner are sweet! If it's within your budget, go for a Werner performance core or performance carbon paddle; you won't regret it.

Hans Solo

Kind of a can of worms to open.

I say if you do go with a double blade, also take a single blade. You may like the single blade as a cange of pace, for narrow stream, or for rough water.

I've used a 260 cm double on my last 3 solo trips and won't ever go without it now. I still use my single for fishing and as a backup. My double is a Bending Branches "Slice" that I got from Piragis for around $125. It's durable and will break down to 2 pieces also.

***Copied from a August 26th, 2013 reply regarding Carbon Kayak paddles***

Last August, backcountry.com had Werner paddles at 25% to 30% off. I purchased a 240 cm Werner Camano Carbon neutral bend K1 paddle from backcountry.com for $297.47! The regular price is $424.95 MSRP. They also had the Camano Straight shaft K1 paddle for $262.46, although still not cheap, it's a significant savings from the retail price. (I personally prefer the neutral bent shaft.)

I had a chance to use the Camano 240cm neutral bend extensively with with my Wenonah Voyager and Sawyer Shockwave after receiving the 240cm Camano paddle. Although I would have preferred it a tad longer in the Voyager, the 240cm length seemed decent in my Sawyer Shockwave, DY Special, and Summersong.

Per a correspondence with Werner, 240cm is the longest length available in the their neutral bend paddles due to the manufacturing process. Nonetheless, the 240cm Camano neutral bend paddle will still do in the Voyager. Werner does manufacture the Camano, as well as their other touring K1 paddles up to 260cm, provided it's the straight shaft paddle.

As far as "drippage"; because I'm a sit and switch paddler when using a single blade bent shaft canoe paddle, I'm comfortable with a certain amount of water getting into the canoe anyway. Even with the 240cm Camano in the Voyager, the "drippage" is acceptable IMO.

The Werner carbon 240cm Camano neutral bend paddle was a significant improvement over the Werner Skagit 240cm neutral bend I had purchased earlier in the spring.

Moral of the story, purchase the best paddle you can afford. The weight savings and performance of the carbon K1 paddle versus the other available materials is worth the cost IMHO.

Hans Solo

Appreciate the added input, as a traditional canoeist, I suppose these are the things, I'm debating, as possibly missing out on. I tend to give it a try, I just need a starting point. Thanks

quote TomT: "I've used a 260 cm double on my last 3 solo trips and won't ever go without it now. I still use my single for fishing and as a backup. My double is a Bending Branches "Slice" that I got from Piragis for around $125. It's durable and will break down to 2 pieces also.


"

I like the breakdown capability. Actually I thought most of them did? (really this is green to me)I need to do more homework. Thanks

Otter1, for what it's worth, the best way to really determine what works best for you in your Souris River Tranquility is to try several brands, models, and lengths to see what works or feels best to you.

There are other factors to consider, (i.e., seat height, gunnel width, your physical size, etc.), but test paddling is really the best method of determination IMHO. Understandably that's hard to do right now given it's January 4th and the country is in the grips of an arctic blast.

Everyone here has offered a lot of good advice, and getting input from many of the canoe-tripping vets is a great start. My guess would be you'd probably want to look at a kayak paddle of at least 260cm or more. The Souris River Tranquility is 28" at the gunnels, which is fairly wide compared to my Wenonah and Sawyer solo canoes, which measure approx. 21" to 23" at the gunnels.

I also own and paddle a Bell Yellowstone Solo and a Bell Rockstar in Royalex. Due the the gunnel widths of 27", my 240cm kayak paddles seem uncomfortably short in those canoes. This is probably why bwca.com member "SunCatcher" uses a longer kayak paddle in his composite Bell Rockstar. (I believe he uses a 260cm or 280cm length paddle.)

I'm assuming that's why mjmkjun also uses a 280cm in his Wenonah Prism. The Prism measures 26" at the gunnel, which is more of a reach compared to my Wenonah's and Sawyers. For me that would seem somewhat long, but if it works for mjmkjun, more power to him.

Hans Solo

i had a bell yellowstone royalex. it paddled fine with a single blade, as long as i was satisfied with going tug boat slow. with a double blade it was much quicker as i didn't have to make correction (steering) strokes. i used a 240, paddling the bell i was always kneeling, i was also used to whitewater kayaking so water running down my arms was natural, the 240 was perfect, anything longer would have been inefficient.

Its' clear that personal preferences come into play when choosing a yak paddle. I happen to prefer the long reach of the 280cm (Thanks, Hans) but don't really have much of an arm reach...nor leg reach for that matter. Yep, 280cm is long and could likely do with a 260 cm easily. Only dripping I get into the canoe is from user error when I'm gawking at something afar. Am 5'6"/170 lbs/average build and certainly not any herculean strength in arms. When I'm out there paddling I like working-out my arms, tho. Especially like when I paddle hard strokes--it's cool how little time it takes to travel far end of a lake like Cherokee. Part of a personal psych-enjoyment, I guess.
yep, factor-in the width of canoe and any pronounced tumblehome (or not), arm reach, your own paddling angle, etc. Have some fun at trying out different lengths (on loaners) this Spring.
on the whole, I'm noisy with double blade usage than single. I tell myself it because I paddle at a shallow angle. :)

Paddling a solo with a single blade requires some apprenticeship; there are nuances to internalize. The double blade eliminates them, casual attention to left-right sequencing will bring the paddler to their destination. The boat also runs faster, as cadence picks up significantly. The downside of increased cadence is the elimination of unloaded recovery of the single blade. Doubles beat the paddler up. Kruger and Landic compared double and single blades on their extreme trips. The double blade guy ran away in the morning, the single blade guy passed him in early afternoon and arrived at camp first.

All that said, double blades increase speed in windy conditions for lots of paddlers who otherwise should stay in camp.

Longer doubles transform every ~forward stroke into a sweep which induces yaw, but they are dry. Longer paddles compromise maneuverability because the blade is flat-angled to the water when drawing/prying. Shorter doubles are more efficient, one can stack hands like a single sticker and minimize fish tailing, but they are wet, hoisting a portion of water over the paddler's thighs with every stroke and require feathering to keep the wind from catching the high blade. Blade placement closer to the boat yields better directional control.

My AT Exception and Werner Cyprus are completely dry at certain cadences with vertical strokes; different cadences of course, and at pretty high turnover rates. Both blades are finely molded over foam centers with shaped backfaces and minimize water pickup. Drip rings are better thought of as showerheads.

Longer doubles are less efficient and compromise control but are dry. Shorter double blades are more efficient and improve maneuverability but are wet. Better paddles are drier as are higher cadences. So it goes.

Weight is a huge issue with double paddles. Single blades float themselves when the blade is submerged. Doubles can do only when a vertical, hence wet, forward stroke is employed. Mostly the double blade user is holding the thing in the air in front of the body all day long, and the swing weight of the high blade is an important energy drain.

We want carbon or glass blades, the injected nylon blade place excess weight in exactly the wrong place - at the ends of the stick. The best blades are foam cores for better shaping and, happily, increase floatation with vertical strokes. Shaft weight is less important, but it's easier to hold a carbon tube in the air for hours than any other composition.

Better double sticks include AT, Barton, Onno, and Werner. As my grand dad used to say; "Always get the very best, it'll frustrate you less." I like bents to minimize wrist strain, but those molded shafts are pricey compared to filament wound tubes.

I would agree with cw regarding apprenticeship but extend that to the double blade paddle as well. With some attention the wind catch on the high blade can be reduced, but a gust can really grab that blade and do a trip on your balance and rhythm. Just be mindful.
I think 1/8 oz water in the boat per stroke is a bit high. My teaching was the blade only should be in the water and with the design of better blades shedding water and a drip cup only a few drops hit my lower legs with each stroke, and not always that. From time to time the drip cup will get below surface and then I get a good splash. A sham wow spread on the floor contains most of that water after an hour of conditioning paddling. The higher the angle the more likely drip but with practice this can be minimized.

Can't add anything to what's been said, so I'll just post pictures of mine. The notches at the top of the blade substitute for drip rings and, IMHO, keep me much drier.

JD

A little surprised that the can of worms hasn't spilled over. I'll add to Mr. Wilson's points about doubles vs. singles over a long day. Doubles beat you up and wear you out. I heard the same story from another paddler early in my paddling career.

Generally speaking, doubles are best used in a low seating position and singles from a higher seating position. Doubles for kayaks and singles for canoes. It has to do with efficiency.

I wince a little bit when I see doubles being used in canoes. I understand it is a lot easier to feel in control of a canoe, especially when solo, using a double blade. But I see it as a rookie mistake. A bit snobbish, I'm sorry.

In the big MR340 race, there is a huge trend in folks using kayaks and using double blades in canoes. Again, I feel it has a lot to do with inexperience. I'm not trying to be snobbish, to each his OWN!! All I can say is that at the start of the race, the kayaks cruise away as I steadily paddle along in my Kruger with a ZRE single blade. I catch up with most of them after 15 or 20 hours and pass them, never seeing them again. Yes, I'll admit to getting beat by 10 to 13 strong kayak/surfski/OC1 paddlers, but I beat 100 or more younger and fitter athletes in faster boats, and feel much of it is due to the pain and injury a kayak and/or double blade inflicts upon the paddler.

The solution to a canoe paddlers woes regarding dealing with wind, those pesky corrective strokes, steering, speed, and efficiency, is to use a good paddle, learn a good stroke, and paddle a canoe with a rudder. Blashpemy! you USCA types yell! Of course it is. But Verlen Kruger and Steve Landick proved the ruddered canoe with a single blade may be the most efficient paddling combo there is, over long distances.

In short, get a rudder!

Pic is a friend's Shockwave. A fast USCA racer fitted with a rudder.

joewildlife,
Great looking boat!
Your story is a bit like the tortoise and the hare fable but I can assure you that "fitness" is not something you can gauge buy looks. I have been beaten buy some pretty "unfit" people in my day, and beat a few "very fit" ones too. It all comes down to conditioning, which is one part of overall "fitness."
That said, I don't disagree with any of what you said...most of all "to each his (or her) OWN!!"

Points to ponder: when you see someone doubleblading a canoe don't assume they don't know how to wield a single stick.

Rudders are wonderful. Would you really want to portage a canoe with one in the BWCA or Quetico? You have to be careful not to damage the mechanism.. while mounting or unmounting or during a fall. Its not impossible of course to use one but its something to consider.

My MR Monarch of course has a rudder and it does paddle best with a single.. with the right amount of rudder angle you never need a correction stroke and the dreaded knuckle banging on the coaming doesn't happen. But you may see me next month in big water with a double blade..cause the water may be too shallow to deploy the rudder.

Doubles give you an instant brace on each side when going down wind in seas and for me are more comforting especially when winds are gusty. They don't give me precise control though and on rivers where precision counts they are for me a hindrance.

I don't buy into the double blades causing injury to a paddler any more than single blades. Poor technique causes injury period. And I have seem lots of poor technique used by both camps.

There is room for both tools.

quote yellowcanoe: "Points to ponder: when you see someone doubleblading a canoe don't assume they don't know how to wield a single stick.

Good point, true. I admit to some of what appears to be snobbishness!

Rudders are wonderful. Would you really want to portage a canoe with one in the BWCA or Quetico? You have to be careful not to damage the mechanism.. while mounting or unmounting or during a fall. Its not impossible of course to use one but its something to consider.

Yes, I do really want to portage a canoe with one in the BWCA AND Quetico. I've gone two trips with my daughter when I carries both canoes, and once with a friend to Quetico. I find the seaworthiness, comfort, and fishability of the Kruger boats to be worth it. We've never had any problem damaging rudders. Keep the lift line loose...


My MR Monarch of course has a rudder and it does paddle best with a single.. with the right amount of rudder angle you never need a correction stroke and the dreaded knuckle banging on the coaming doesn't happen. But you may see me next month in big water with a double blade..cause the water may be too shallow to deploy the rudder.

I can't see how it can be too shallow to deploy a rudder and not too shallow to paddle...I rarely lift my rudder, only if backing up the boat. I just let it slide over obstructions. On or off the water.

Pics and discussion of Krugers and rudders a bit off topice. But yes, my experience with singles vs doubles is a lot of tortoise and the hare. My race experience is also about how "Age and treachery win out over youth and exhuberance, every time". :)

Everglades. Single sticking is not an option when the blade is 21 inches long and the tide is out. Left with less than a foot of water the double blade is the only way to go and the rudder just grabs the mud and oyster bars. Same here in Maine at times..

One think I don't like about the Monarch is that in its current seating arrangement I cannot kneel. I prefer single sticking still while kneeling.

I was extrememly fortunate when I did the EC that the tides were in my favor virtually the whole time. But I get it.

Your dislike of the Monarch (not being able to kneel it) is EXACTLY why I was able to get the boat from Ozarkpaddler in the first place!

here I go hijacking another thread with my incessant talk of Kruger boats! So I'll stick to my original and strong opinion...single blade with a rudder-equipped boat is a fine way to travel. Over and out.

Joe

Looks like I should have gone to page 2 of the gear forum before searching and resurrecting a few year old thread.
Lots of great info above for me to consider.
In a few threads I have seen people suggest trying the differnt lengths of double blade paddles out prior to trying. Does anyone know where a person can go to do this?

I came accross a very interesting website with more info on this product: http://www.nauticexpo.com/boat-manufacturer/kayak-paddle-2407.html

I missed this thread on the first go-round so I'll throw in my 2 cents now.

Personally I can't imagine paddling a canoe with a double bladed paddle. It's not a purist thing. I've put in lots of time with double bladed paddles (euro and wing) when I was racing kayaks and while I loved the wing for it's efficiency and use for torso rotation it was tough on my body. Did a couple 75 mile races down the Missouri river with a 25-35mph headwind and the double blade really wore on me. Not only are you pulling against the water with every stroke but your also pushing against the wind with the top hand as it catches that upper blade. 30 miles was about all I could do in those races with a double blade in my surf ski before my body made me switch to a single. I gave up a little speed (not much) but gained a lot in comfort.

I now paddle strictly with a single blade, even in my surf ski. I did a 24 mile workout paddle last Saturday with it and tried the wing for 1/2 hour. It wasn't fun, wasn't really any faster except when sprinting, it was heavy, and I got really wet.

Put in the time to get proficient with a single blade and you'll be surprised at what you can do. If you think they're slow just look at what the USCA racers can do with one.

I will however add that I can see where a double blade would be tempting on a shorter, higher rockered canoe that doesn't track so straight. I have no problem cruising with a single blade in those boats but when I want to go hard (like paddling upstream) I have a tough time. A correction stroke kills the momentum so I find myself switching sides every 2 or 3 strokes, which gets really old. But if I was forced to paddle such a boat in those conditions regularly I'd look real hard into adding a rudder and sticking with a single blade.

Alan

quote Alan Gage: "I missed this thread on the first go-round so I'll throw in my 2 cents now.

I will however add that I can see where a double blade would be tempting on a shorter, higher rockered canoe that doesn't track so straight. I have no problem cruising with a single blade in those boats but when I want to go hard (like paddling upstream) I have a tough time. A correction stroke kills the momentum so I find myself switching sides every 2 or 3 strokes, which gets really old. But if I was forced to paddle such a boat in those conditions regularly I'd look real hard into adding a rudder and sticking with a single blade.

Alan

"

For me, a novice paddler, I really like the double bladed paddle for my wildfire. With a single blade, I have to switch sides a lot when paddling due to the rocker, and even then I have trouble with occaisionally losing forward momentum. The double bladed paddle seems to solve that for me. What I like about that is, it makes the boat more viable for longer distances (using double blade), and then creek where you want the rocker (using single blade). I've been switching off between the kayak paddle and the single blade to avoid getting tired. I think, shorter kayak paddle length and smaller blade maybe makes the kayak paddle less tiring.

I have a Wenonah Voayger kevlar ultralight. . .17 1/2 feet long weighs just over 35 lbs. has the exact same rudder set up as in the pic above. I use a double blade 240 paddle with larger blades, and bring a powersurge Z FW medium single blade as well. The rudder makes all the difference on these long boats.

@markarobers or anyone really, where did you buy that rudder? I want to put one on my solo racer so I can go out on very windy days and not fight the whole time.

quote mcimes: "@markarobers or anyone really, where did you buy that rudder? I want to put one on my solo racer so I can go out on very windy days and not fight the whole time. "

Pretty sure they'd kick you out of the MCA for that. :)

Alan

lol. I bought a double blade paddle recently and took it out for the first time last weekend. the group harassed me a little bit as expected since we're all fairly die hard single bladers (it is the better paddle after all =)

I just wanted the double to exercise different muscles and to develop my double blade stroke a little. My next boat will probably be an Epic V10, and I'd like to be able to just concentrate on staying upright instead of trying to learn to double blade at the same time. Tippy boat + learning a new stroke is a bad combo as I found out during a couple of very wet test paddles last year (but damn those boats are FUN when you're upright)

I tried using the double blade on the Rum River but couldnt do it much because its so twisty and the current was very strong. It was impossible to keep the line I needed without double stroking on one side frequently, completely defeating the point of a double blade. With a rudder, I think the J200 would be fun to paddle on rivers, although I feel like a double blade doesnt brace as well. That's probably just my inexperience with a double. I had an awesome save with my single though. I leaned it too hard and had water at the gunwale (confirmed by the guy in the boat next to me) and everyone thought I was going in. I managed to save it with a quick and long brace. It was pretty fun.

Plus, I live by medicine lake, which is pretty big for metro area lakes (very small compared to 'real' big lakes though). Anyways, it frequently has a pretty strong wind on it. I hate fighting it the whole time and it would be nice to just paddle like normal even in a 20mph wind.

I have solo'd a 17' Alumacraft and preferred the kayak paddle. I brought both the traditional single blade canoe paddle and the kayak paddle, and only used the regular paddle when navigating rapids or when maneuvering in tight quarters / while fishing (less cumbersome). I'm not a master paddler by any means, but I felt like the kayak paddle was more efficient and did a good job of distributing the paddling burden across both sides of my back.

J-stroking and trading sides as needed ends up favoring one side and you lose some of the thrust from additional drag needed to straighten out w/the J stroke. There might be better strokes to use when soloing with a single blade paddle, but I figured since I had a kayak paddle already, why bother learning and perfecting a new stroke when I can just use the yak paddle?

I think the only negative was that I would occasionally splash myself and my hands would get wet from water dripping down the shaft ... but that happens when using a regular paddle sometimes anyway.

quote mcimes: "


I just wanted the double to exercise different muscles and to develop my double blade stroke a little. My next boat will probably be an Epic V10, and I'd like to be able to just concentrate on staying upright instead of trying to learn to double blade at the same time. Tippy boat + learning a new stroke is a bad combo as I found out during a couple of very wet test paddles last year (but damn those boats are FUN when you're upright)"

Maybe you should just come down and buy my V8 and wing paddle. :)

"I tried using the double blade on the Rum River but couldnt do it much because its so twisty and the current was very strong. It was impossible to keep the line I needed without double stroking on one side frequently, completely defeating the point of a double blade."

Indeed. Nothing worse than multiple strokes on the same side with a double bladed paddle. Rudders make a world of difference when going hard.

"I feel like a double blade doesnt brace as well. That's probably just my inexperience with a double. I had an awesome save with my single though. I leaned it too hard and had water at the gunwale (confirmed by the guy in the boat next to me) and everyone thought I was going in. I managed to save it with a quick and long brace. It was pretty fun."

Sounds like a fun day. Didn't work out for me to make it up there this year. In tippy boats like surfskis the double feels much more stable, especially the wing, since every stroke tends to act like a brace. So if you feel yourself going over to the left you just take a quick stroke on that side. Not so easy with a single. You feel yourself going over to the left but you're stroking on the right. Tough to get that paddle on the other side before it's too late.

Alan

I picked up a 250cm Manta Ray Carbon PosiLok 2-Piece Kayak Paddle for my Bell Magic and have been a bit under-whelmed, though I haven't actually tripped with it yet. I guess I need to get used to constant wet hands/pants and how to control it in various wind conditions. It is a nice, light paddle with great adjustability, though, so if you are set on one I think it's the ticket.

quote MNDan: "I picked up a 250cm Manta Ray Carbon PosiLok 2-Piece Kayak Paddle for my Bell Magic and have been a bit under-whelmed, though I haven't actually tripped with it yet. I guess I need to get used to constant wet hands/pants and how to control it in various wind conditions. It is a nice, light paddle with great adjustability, though, so if you are set on one I think it's the ticket. "

I have the exact same paddle. If I had to do it again I'd get a smaller blade like the sting ray. Pulling the bigger bladed Manta Ray is tiring for me. I thought I might also want a longer paddle due to the drip. But with the drip rings in the right spot and a bit of a pause between strokes the dripping isn't much worse than sit and switch. I think I will stick with 250cm.

I see Werner is building 250cm paddles standard now under their "hooked" line vs just special order, so maybe the available stock selection of 250cm paddles will go up someday soon.