For those of you who have taken kayaks to the BWCA. . .I have two kayaks I could take.

Wilderness Systems Cape Horn. . .15 feet long, touring type. Has two sealed hatches, can carry 350 lbs and weighs 55 pounds.

Old Town XWave. . .12'9" long. . .weighs 57 pounds, can carry 300 lbs. Front and rear sealed hatches.

Both weight the same from a portaging standpoint. The Old Town would handle better in tight areas, the Cape Horn better on open water. Cape Horn carries a lot more in bulk, and 50 more pounds.

Going for 5 days with a group. . .some kayaks, some canoes.

My only other option is a 11 foot solo canoe, a Kay Noe.

Any input would be great!

the bigger kayak or the canoe

I would take the longer one. I've been on two trips with kayaks. You'll like the longer kayaks on the open water. I've been from Lake One all the way to Fishdance and had no problems fitting kayak anywhere on the water and portages. Portaging the yak can suck, do you have a yoke to attach or are you planning on two people carrying? Getting in and out of the yak at the portages can get a little tricky, but it can be done with some caution. An easier way to portage the yak is to skip the short portages and just pull the yak up a small rapid or ride down a small rapid(obviously depends on time of year and water level). Some can be done and some not. Small items and tarps or tents can be shoved to the very front and back of the hatches. If your planning on fishing out of it, make sure there is another kayak or canoe nearby to help land the big fish that will pull you around for awhile. Don't let the big one get away because you can't get it within arms reach.

I still prefer the canoe over the kayak. So many things are easier out the canoe.

you'll love the kayak. either will paddle beautifully on the lakes, much easier and more fun than any canoe.


What you'll want to pay attention to is your gear, and portaging. Figure out what you're going to pack, and how it'll fit in (or on) the kayak. Figure out how you're going to portage it, and practice both before you go. A canoe is nowhere near as good for paddling but much better for portaging.

Bigger kayak will be a pleasure to paddle. Are you carrying your gear or will it be in a canoe? If you're carrying it, one trick to making portages easier is to bag everything in dry bags rather than have things loose. Carry an empty pack as well, and at the portage just toss the dry bags in the pack. Also, a portage yoke would be a very wise investment. It's one of those things where you debate the expense, and decide not to, then 100 rods in realize that it would have been worth twice the price.

>you'll love the kayak. either will paddle beautifully on the lakes, much easier and more fun than any canoe.

easier and more fun? I think that opinion is skewed and biased. I paddle both kayaks and canoes and find them different, not better or worse.

In the BW I always paddle a canoe, I find it more comfortable and easier to use then my kayak. The canoe allows me to get in and out musch easier, at portages and beaver dams. I find a canoe is easier to portage then my kayak, my deck lashings on the kayak can get tangled in brush and tree limbs and does not balance as well. The canoe carries gear much easier then a kayak, especially when faced with closely-spaced portages, in-out, in-out.

Anyone who asks me whether they should take a canoe or a kayak to the BW, I say "In general, a canoe is better suited."

But I would never say a canoe is more fun then a kayak.


hummm?

Ok, I went and looked at what a Kay-Noe was;

Its a Dick's SG boat, made by Old Town (pack) of poly instead of RX.

If it was me, I'd rent a decent solo from an outfitter.

If no rental, I'd take the Wilderness System Kayak and pick a route with minimal portages. Its a very good boat thats more efficent then the Kay-Noe and probably more comfortable.


humm?

That is correct. . .Kay Noe is a small 11 foot canoe made by Old Town similiar to the Pack or Discovery 119. I actually bought it to use for hunting access here in KY at a lake area I hunt.

Most of the guys are wanting to take their kayaks which range from 11 feet to 15 feet. Last year we did a 4 day trip with canoes in late May in BWCA. This year two trips, one late May the other early Sept. We took two groups in last year of 6 men each. That will probably mean we would have no more than two kayaks and two canoes per group this year.

Last year we rented the "complete" outfitter package. The canoes were great. . .kevlar and very good quality. The rest of the gear was just average. This year we will bring all our own gear except for canoes for those who need to rent them.

Also going ultralight on gear. . .solo tents, hammocks, and freeze dried food. Any help on lightening up the load for kayak camping would be great!

Assuming you have paddled both these boats and are satisfied with the way they handle, I would look at how you are going to pack with your gear. Kayaks require more practice-packing to figure out where things are going to go and how you are going to get your gear in and out for portages. You do not want to find that you don't have enough space at the put-in, so make sure before you go.

Also, I would consider the route... if you are on big water or paddling long distances, I would probably prefer the bigger kayak. If you are not traveling as much and doing more day trip explorations, the smaller boat might be good. Also, are you fishing? One boat might accommodate fishing better than the other.

quote Winemaker: "I would never say a canoe is more fun then a kayak."

Neither would I.





I'm glad we agree.

:)

Weight is not as much a concern as bulk. Use the longer kayak.
Think "backpacking" when you pack. Principles like "wear one/ pack one". Think of things can can do double duty. I like a foam pad under my feet while kayaking. I have a Crazy Creek chair that acts as a pad while paddling and a chair in camp. When my friend comes along in his canoe, we bring a big two burner stove, lots of extra food in a big blue bear barrel, extra clothes,big cook kit, etc. On a kayak trip, I bring my MSR stove, Garcia bear barrel,collapsible sink,minimal cook kit, and pack minimal clothing. It is amazing what you can pack into a kayak. The gear that fits in my CD Sirocco won't all fit into one standard Duluth pack.
I personally prefer the kayak, especially in rough water. Waves that swamped my friend's solo canoe just rolled off my deck. The canoe is definitely easier to get in and out of, but we have found several routes that have no portaging yet still give us a good taste of the wilderness.

I have done the BWCA with canoes. We have also done a lot of overnight river trips here in KY that involved pretty nasty portages. With the kayaks, we typically pick up two at a time. . .one guy on the front, one guy on the back, and carry them through. Often, if packed light, we don't even unload them.

We are bringing a 16 foot touring boat and a 15 foot boat. both with sealed front and back hatches. Our plan is to leave the fishing gear, and light stuff in the front hatch. Back hatch will be our Seals portage packs with heavier gear. At the portages, just get out the portage packs, put them on. . .one guy on the front and another on the rear. . .and carry both kayaks through at one time. This has worked well in the past on river portages

I don't really understand the whole thing about kayaks are harder to protage. I would agree if I was a solo. But with two guys and two kayaks, you often don't even have to unload them. . .just carry through.

quote markaroberts: "I don't really understand the whole thing about kayaks are harder to protage. I would agree if I was a solo. But with two guys and two kayaks, you often don't even have to unload them. . .just carry through."

Two reasons that you hear that. You can't just toss a loaded pack with all your gear in a kayak and pull it straight out and toss it on your back. Some folks when kayaking pack everything loose, not even bringing a pack. That works ok when no portages are involved, but makes portaging a PITA, taking a long time. The other reason is that kayaks don't normally come with a yoke and are uncomfortable to carry over a fair distance.

Double carrying kayaks is obviously possible and very practical in some situations, but over longer distances or very rough terrain can be difficult or even dangerous.

The problem with the comparison of portaging kayaks and canoes is the gear. Last year we took canoes and had a LOT of gear in each canoe. We all had "bag chairs", brought fresh food (potatoes, onions, steaks) and had a lot of fishing gear and clothes. When we take kayaks on overnight river trips here in KY we pack much differently. This year with kayaks, we are packing the dehydrated dinners in a bag (mountain valley I think). .. one man tents, ultra light sleeping bags. . .minimal fishing gear and one pack for each guy. . .everything in it.

our experience was that when we had the canoes we packed a lot more gear and usually had to double portage. On river trips with the kayaks we generally pack "backpacker" style and don't even empty the hatches. . .just pick the kayaks up one guy on each end and carry through. Often two kayaks at a time.

It all depends on the length of portage I would think. Assuming 55 lbs per kayak, and a lightweight 25 lbs of gear & food each, that's 80 lbs per hand. A minimum of 160 lbs total. Although it's definitely possible to carry that for a reasonably short distance, there's a reason that people normally put that type of weight on their shoulders and or hips when carrying it a longer distance.

And the guy in back has a distinct disadvantage due to limited visibility. On uneven or slippery ground, over rocks, roots, etc, there's a very increased possibility that he's going to stumble. Which of course leads to potential knee/ankle injuries.

The above is just my input, based on my experiences. Obviously your mileage may vary.

quote Benutzer: "It all depends on the length of portage I would think. Assuming 55 lbs per kayak, and a lightweight 25 lbs of gear & food each, that's 80 lbs per hand. A minimum of 160 lbs total. Although it's definitely possible to carry that for a reasonably short distance, there's a reason that people normally put that type of weight on their shoulders and or hips when carrying it a longer distance....

The above is just my input, based on my experiences. Obviously your mileage may vary."

I agree. The short wide relatively flat 13 rod portage from Sawbill to Kelso would lend itself to double carrying loaded kayaks. However, the almost straight up and then down 55 rod portage from Brule to Vernon is not fun with two people and one empty kayak.