My thoughts on canoe materials and other things

I think I may have been swept up by the “Kevlar mentality” of the BWCA. I think that local outfitters exert a strong influence on the "accepted norms" in the BWCA. Paddling in the BWCA equates to paddling high tech Kevlar canoes. Ultra-light, my man, single portage and all that rot. Basically, the customer is feed the idea that no portage trail will present an obstacle with this Kevlar baby on your back.

The outfitter wants a reputation (as should be) of renting the best, yuppie, top notch equipment. Why? Because the outfitter wants to stay in business and because visitors who follow the lore of the BWCA have been brainwashed from the get go. If they have the newest high tech gadget, then they will have the perfect north woods experience; an experience of pristine camps, the call of the loon, and the howl of the wolf...... all with no pain. Well, maybe. But back to weighing the cost of a Kevlar mentality

Outfitter investment in Kevlar: An established outfitter has nothing to lose (if seasons are good). Let’s pencil this out:
1) Cost of 17 foot Seliga Kevlar (42 lbs) to the outfitter maybe $2400 (to me $2749)
2) In a good year (60 days of rental) the canoe is paid for ($40/day) by the end of the season. The outfitter sells it... goodbye beat up canoe, hello new canoe.

Common Joe (me) investment: I pay big bucks for Kevlar (blackgold in my case) and now want as many seasons as possible out of that investment. Over the long haul can Kevlar compete? I think not, and I think I made a mistake going blackgold.

I have 2 royalex canoes that I bought in 1990. These canoes have been dragged over boulder fields, lined down cliffs and through shallow rapids, literally heaved over down-fall, high centered on rocks, loaded and unloaded more times than I can count, and have left a trail of green from the Churchill River to the BWCA.

Judging from the maiden voyage of my Bell Northwind, blackgold will never stand the test of time and endure like royalex. Kevlar is light, tough, but like an egg shell it breaks. Aluminum is tough as nails, but I hate the way it sticks to rocks. Royalex takes a beating, keeps slipping, and keeps on ticking.

In a canoe there is more to think about than just the weight over the portage.

I see your point but my Norhtwind Bell blackgold in now about 10 years old and is doing fine. I admit that I am a little bit careful and have had her in for a few up-keeps and deep scratch fills but it is doing well.

i don't baby my kevlar boats, but i don't find a reason to beat the hell out them either. i find these boats amazingly tough, easy to refinish if necessary, and expect a long life from them.

you don't like the boat, then get rid of it.

...and i'm not the least impressed by your "trail of green".

I really appreciate the light weight of my Kevlar canoes, and know their weakness, so I am more careful with them. If I had to carry my 80 lb aluminum Michicraft over a hard portage I'd take shorter trips and spend more camp days to recuperate. My 18 foot Kevlar weighs about 15 pounds less than my 16 foot Royalex.

I'm an old man and I work a desk job, so I have to make the trade-off on either weight or distance, and Kevlar's worth every penny.

The canoes are, in order of weight, 35 years old, 9 years old, 6 years old and 2 years old. They all look used but serviceable.

In addition to weight savings, composite canoes allow manufacturers to produce more efficient designs than are possible using other materials. I paddle mostly in the BWCA and Quetico have not had any issues with the durabilty of any of the composite canoes I have owned (Wenonah, Bell, & SR). I would rather have superior paddling, lightweight, and adequate durabilty than just overkill durability for the type of paddling I do. If I did more shallow rivers or very remote expedition trips, the added durabilty of Royalex would be worth it but in the BWCA, I'm not too worried about my kevlar not being durable enough.

All canoe hull materials have their place, along with strengths and weaknesses of each. For the tripping I do, kevlar is awesome. While I might land it a bit more cautiously, I do not "baby" it to any extent. I certainly use sound damping materials in my aluminum and borrow my brothers royalex for swift river action. But, I trip in kevlar, it has to many undeniable advantages for me.

Boppa

Yes, I would say if you are going to drag your canoe over boulder fields, line it down cliffs, go through shallow rapids, etc, then you shouldn't get a kevlar canoe. I'm not going to do those things, but I appreciate the lightness of kevlar. To each his own.

i have a kev canoe...but ill still say this.....

the ultimate reason the BW is so crowded now is kevlar canoes. ANYONE can carry a kev canoe.

its that simple.

I don't necessarily buy that, kanoes. I think it gets people in deeper than they would go with a heavier canoe thus spreading the crowds out a bit more. The same quotas have been in place for a long time. The blowdown and the fires have more to do with the crowding than the kevlar canoe does.

I have never been given that feeling from the outfitter we use (Seagull).

We tell them what we want - they set it up for us. Period.

In thirty years the new generation of paddlers will wonder why we carried those heavy kevlar canoes.

I carry heavy antiquated Grumman and Corecraft canoes. I will carry those canoes anywhere I want and do it with a smile. I've been places others wouldn't go and would do it again. I would love a kev unit but can't afford the cost but still love the BWCA the same as everyone else. The saturation of the wilderness can be attributed to the ease of travel of the novice rookies with a 42 lb canoe but that doesn't really matter that much to me I just love to be there with what I have.

Highplains - I'll take that Northwind off your hands :)

I can’t speak up for Blackgold, but all of my Kevlar 49 canoes have lasted over 20 years. Two boats started their careers as whitewater race boats. After that they enjoyed years of service at whitewater recreational paddling. Now in mid-life they are useful for canoe tripping. My solo canoe is a 1984 Wabash Valley, and my tandem canoe is a 1987 Wenonah Odyssey.

I’m 56 and I suspect that, with today’s cost of gasoline, they both will outlast me.

Kevlar sells but I don't think it's a yuppie fad. It would be very tough to portage any kind of 18' plus canoe in anything but Kevlar. Admitted that royalex is tougher, but would be very heavy at the kind of length that would carry the gear for over 10 days.

Money is the sore spot with most. I had to sell my royalex to keep my Kevlar. It was 16', 58 lbs and $900 brand new. My Kevlar was $2000, 18.5' and 49 lbs. I don't baby it or abuse it. I'm happy with it.

Hummm,

May I say I find this discussion thoughtful, meaningful, and well above the intelligence level this BB too often portrays to visitors.

This gives me hope for the future. May such deep, interesting discussions continue...

As I get older, boats get heavier. Hull technology is not keeping up with my diminishing vigor. I'm hoping I live long enough to buy a 10 lb canoe.

It's all about what people find important. At 39 with two kids, I love the Royalex. I needed something inexpensive (limited budget), tough enough for kids to jump in on the rocks, and weight wasn't much a factor for me.

Some day when my legs and back aren't as strong or when I win the Powerball, having a lighter canoe may be more important than saving some money and I'll probably go with a kevlar canoe.

I know plenty of people who are decidedly NOT yuppies who have a kevlar canoe and duluth packs that look like they were used by the original voyageurs.

I guess I don't understand the logic.

Outfitters need reliable canoes that can handle a VERY large amount of abuse. Nearly all of the customers do not know how to treat a canoe or don't care. Kevlar canoes can handle this abuse.

It seems that it would take a real canoe owner many many years to abuse a canoe as bad as season or two with an outfitter...

I like royalex myself. The idea of kevlar sounds nice but Royalex is just more reliable for my style of travel including rivers. If I had the space and a little more coin I'd get a specific canoe for the each kind of trip I want to take.

For now the shoulders, back and legs are in good shape and I think the Royalex portages way easy. I also still have my youthful good looks so I don't need a pretty kevlar canoe to enhance my overall traveling beauty. I'm sure when I get old and wrinkly like some of you I'll "evolve". Til then......................

MD

It's the same as with any other gear. There is always something lighter, stronger, etc for those with unlimited funds. For the rest of us, it boils down to personal preference and priorities. I spend more for something if the quality of the cheaper one interferes with my enjoyment. I spend less if I feel I've gone past the line of diminishing returns, and the added features don't interest me.

Some folks invest heavily in a specific piece of gear to save a few pounds and on the other hand carry their old heavy [fill in the blank] because the weight's not as important on that item because they just prefer their old trusty whatever.

It's lighter, thats it, I own a royalex, but rent a kevlar, like your's my canoe has taken quite a beating, but is 20 lbs heavier than a comperable kevlar canoe.

2 lbs LT? its ALOT heavier than 2 lbs.

I edited it jan...

I am curious as to why you seem already so dissatisfied with the black gold layup. Kevlar scratches easily but really the structure soundness of the canoe will remain unchanged. Show me a kevlar not all beat up and I have to wonder if that person really enjoys paddling it :)

I don't drag mine across rocks, but I certainly do not baby it either. Back when I rented canoes I saw my brother in law throw one off of his shoulders and land squarely on a bunch of rocks---nothing but a scratch. That is what sold me on the durability. Yes they are not as durable as royalex or aluminum---those 2 layups can last a lifetime. I had someone tell me the average life span of a kevlar canoe with normal abuse/use is about 20-25 years--have no idea if that is correct or not, but for me the weight savings that is acceptable to me, I will want to try something different before that anyway :) plus my kevlar model out performs any royalex or aluminum that I ever tried in the categories that are important for my canoing. My canoe is now on over 70 days of HARD use in Quetico, some bushwhacking, has been dropped on trees/rocks (by accident of course) and may be scratched up on the bottom, but no signs of anything that would affect durability---just alot of what I call character so far.

I think outfitters rent kevlars because that is what the majority of paddlers want----simply giving customers what they want is how to stay in business. As far as the "yuppie" comment----are only yuppies allowed to like "top notch" equipment? I think we all would like the best equipment available--most of us have to pick and choose based on our on personal preference and personal affordability :)

Tim

Well, no one would EVER call us yuppies! We are in our 60's, we drive a 1999 Chevy Lumina, paddle with cheap aluminum shaft plastic paddles, use a Duluth pack that we bought used from Canadian Waters in 1973, and don't own anything that says "The North Face" on it. But since 1999 we have paddled a Bell Northwind (not the Black Gold one but the green composite over kevlar model.) It is all scratched up on its bottom, (I figure those scratches add character, and some of them even have memories attached), its beautiful wood gunnels are lovingly wiped with Watco Oil every summer, and it is pretty as heck! :-)

We haven't babied it. It has been on a canoe trip every year, and two trips in 2004. We don't wet-foot every portage, although we don't scrape up onto the rocks either. We have run up on submerged rocks inadvertently, and we have left green on portage landings from time to time. It hasn't been dropped off a cliff, but it has been dropped a time or two from shorter distances, and once it did slide down the side of a rocky hill and out into the water when no one was looking. (Sorry to share that, Spartan1!) It has blown off some sawhorses into a fence in a windstorm one time (long story there) and that did result in needing repairs, but afterwards it looked good as new.

We bought it to replace our trusty 17-foot Grumman that went on every trip from 1971 through 1998. It is a lot easier for my husband to portage, and it handles well in the water. We don't consider it all that fragile, and we expect to hand it down to our children in a couple of decades, with life still left in it.

The Grumman has a happy life at our lake cottage. I still love that boat, too. But it isn't nearly as pretty.

As yet another Kevlar canoe is on the front cover of Boundary Waters Journal... you might as well get used to it.

Personally, I don't miss the weight, the heat and the sound of an aluminum canoe. I gladly switched to Kevlar 10 years ago.

Now that I've repaired my Wenonah to the point of no more repair and am forced to weigh my options I'm not sure if it's worth buying a new one; adding up the fuel costs and calculated costs of ownership (repair, storage) versus number of days used it looks like a bad decision to own.

Patches - I agree that if you use your canoe less than 7 days a year, and have to travel hundreds of miles to use it, then renting makes sense. There are lots of outfitters near the BWCA, if that is the only place you go. But, if you also use it close to home where there are no outfitters, or use one more than 7 days a year, then owning starts to make more sense. The lightness of kevlar also increases the use of my canoe. I'll take it out for an evening on days I wouldn't think of loading my 85lb beast on the car by myself.

I guess if you only used your canoe for an annual BW trip it might not be worth the investment. We started buying canoes over 3 decades before my first Boundary Waters trip, and have used them a lot, about nine months out of every year.

You are very correct. That was very narrow-minded of me.

If you use your canoe elsewhere besides the BW, spending the money for a Kevlar canoe does spread out the cost some.

Having young kids and no time I can't tell you the last time I went canoing in my home area, I didn't even think of that side of the argument.

Plus there's the 'cool factor' owning a KEVLAR canoe shows the fact you've gone from a poor college student with more time than money to a working fool with more money than time.

Was just researching these old threads to get peoples' impressions of kevlar.

We just rented our first Kevlar. My home canoe is Roylex. Every other BWCA trip I had taken was aluminum.

While I loved the weight, the outfitter was very adamant about not letting the canoe EVER touch a rock. Of course, that's impossible in the bdub. We found ourselves so worried about every rock that it had me wondering if kevlar was worth it. The outfitter had some duct tape on the leading and trailing edge of the keel. I'm not sure if it was a scratch guard or a tattle tale.

I'm glad to hear that if you are willing to accept some scratches that Kevlar has proved to be durable.

After 2 back surgeries my "kevlar" allows me to trip more comfortably, more often and in some respects more safely.

Since I took the Oath of Respect...I respect all of your opinions.
I own a Bell NorthStar BlackGold. I like it, I bought it NEW on Clearance as it was a 2007 Model for $1600. I bought it for the Value and the lightweightness, and also think it looks sharp.
So to each his own. I think my next canoe will be Royalex, for it's durability. We do have rivers in Nebraska that are good paddleing, Not much for Boundary waters here... but they are shallow sandy bottom, and the bottom of the canoes take a beating at time ...so I think for this purpose a Royalex is the way to go.
Great input here...that's what i love about this site.
SunCatcher

Rob, maybe next time rent from VNO. One of the two SRQ17 kevlars we got from them last Saturday was the typical 2-year old. The other was showroom shiny. I told Lynn that it seemed "darn near new," and she replied, "I think it is." Half-joking that she would then be able to immediately tell how 'badly' we treated it, she assured me with a pat on the back, "You'll be fine."

You are more careful with kevlar, but not to the point that it ruins your trip. Wetfoot and slow down around rocky areas. Load in the water. The usual stuff. We returned it with scratches typical of any kev's maiden voyage and nobody said a word except, "How was the fishin'?"

my Oldtown Pathfinder at 57 pounds of Royalex took me all over the BW and Q for some twenty plus years.but now at 63 and 64 on my next big trip my 37 pound Kevlar keeps me on the canoe path.

if you have ever made the Beartrack portage you know the nice rock ledge about halfway thru.ten,even five years ago i could make the carry in one shot but the last three years i've stopped for a short rest at that rock bench even with my lighter Kevlar canoe.i can paddle all day but the carrys are hard on my knees.with this new boat i assume i can canoe trip until i'm too old to lift even this off the ground.Kevlar will keep us old Baby Boomers going well into our 80's!!!

I love my kevlar canoes. I don't baby them at all. The whole point is that they are light but tough. I do wetfoot at portages but I would do that no matter what. It was what I was taught to do when I first started tripping at age 10 with Grumman canoes. And there is no question that they are much better designed in terms of dynamics than aluminum canoes because of the inherent limitations of aluminum.

If anything, kevlar canoes are too tough. My comparison point isn't aluminum. It's birch bark. That's what the real outdoorsmen used. And they weren't no yuppies either. With tougher canoes we pay too little attention to our skills and our surroundings.

In terms of outfitters, the last time I rented a kevlar canoe (from VNO) before buying one, it was brand new, complete with the Wenonah owner's manual taped to the thwart. I had to laugh because I knew when I brought it back it would be obvious which scrapes were mine! I commented on that when I returned the canoe with lots of little marks on the hull, and Lynn just laughed and said it looked pretty good to her. The other outfitters I've used have been the same. Of course, maybe they just recognize that I'm a seasoned canoe camper who isn't going to load up on dry land.

Finally, a civil discussion on a hot topic!! (Thanks Kip) I own several royalex canoes. As an old whitewater paddler I cannot make the switch. I am simply very hard on my boats and I would have to change the way I treat my boats big time. With that said, I really do not think kevlar boats are yuppie, I simply think they are the better "mousetrap" for the BWCA. They are lighter, and are plenty strong if you take care of them. I do think the kevlar boat has contributed to more new folks getting deeper into the back country and have made the wilderness canoe trip easier for most folks. If kevlar allows more folks to enjoy the BWCA, that is a good thing. The more folks who love the resource, the more who will step up and protect it.

On my second trip to the BWCA, I purchased a Souris River Quetico 18.5 in duralite. I am big guy and wanted a big stable canoe, as a tripping canoe. The Duralite at 58 lbs was fine, (and still is although I am a little bit older now). I live in Arkansas, in the middle of some of the best white water rocky streams you can paddle. The SR has never been on them, it is paddled for exercise on a local lake. I bring it north with me when I do a tandem trip and love it. I have two other canoes that are Royalex, and use them here in AR, on the rocky streams, although one is a Wenonah Wilderness made for solo tripping, and while I have yet to take it north it will go hopefully next year! I have never paddled a Kevlar Canoe... I wet foot in all my canoes, in lakes, streams and rivers. If it cold I wear boots to paddle. I am thinking of maybe trying to trade the SR 18.5 in on a used SR 17 in kevlar if I can find one, or maybe I can trade with Joe at Red Rock. The idea of a lighter boat as I get older does appeal to me! Particularly since I have had 4 knee surgeries, and a partial replacement...

I think kevlar has enable some of those of the older generation (to which I will belong soon) to continue doing what they love with more ease!

Bruce

You don't even have to be older to enjoy the lightweight characteristics on Kevlar:)

You can see from my nametag where I stand on this topic. I started out with aluminum, and then started taking my 8th grade students (boys and girls) to the BW. 73 lb Alumacrafts borrowed from the phy ed dept. were really tough on the kids...we put sets of portage pads on the front and rear thwarts and two kids carried it, or I had to take a 2nd and a 3rd canoe across. Pretty soon I moved into a lightweight Alumacract and then a fiberglass 65 lb. Whitewater II (Wenonah), the grandfather to the MnII. Then I found a used kevlar Sundowner, then a second, and then a MnII. Of course, I had the advantage of taking 4 trips a summer with kids paying for the trip, so I could justify the move to kevlar. I also found the kevlar allowed us to go farther, faster...a day of travel in kevlar was two hours faster than the same day, same route, in aluminum. On a trip with kids north of Nipigon and Armstrong, the local outfitter looked at my 4 canoes and said, "You're not taking those on the Ogoki, are you? They'll get wrecked." He aimed me at a more lakes route, which turned out to be quite boring. But for my many trips in the BW and Q, the kevlar has been fine, but I do have to indoctrinate people..wetfoot, float the canoe, ease in to shore, lift and don't drag. I couldn't keep going if I had to tote aluminum.

My first was a grumman tank. had to sell it after college with second baby on the way. I'm sure it would still be just fine today, 35 years later. I sure do miss that canoe - lots of good memories :(

I only care to spend as much as royalex. Kevlar is a luxury, so I rented one for the BW instead of buying. Best decision I made. Don't know that I would have done a 426 rod portage with royalex.

The ONLY reason I have a kevlar solo is because it was a deal I could not pass up. $500 Bell Magic, CCS spray cover AND carbon fiber blade paddle. Thanks again, Adam. I am forever indebted to you. :)

Welcome to the yuppie generation HPD.

Paddling a kevlar canoe is "yuppie" equipment? Whatever.

Seems there is a lot of rationalization going on, especially by those who don't own a kevlar canoe, but I can't imagine, given the option, that anyone who regularly paddles on lakes wouldn't choose kevlar over Royalex or aluminum. It's lighter, faster and, in most cases, just as stable of a fishing platform.

I wouldn't do it any other way.

My first trip to the BW was in '86 maybe and of course I was paddling an aluminum tank. Moved on to a royalex boat which was a lot of fun and made the trips easier. I took a job with a friend guiding school groups in Quetico in about 94 and Ron was paddling a Kevlar Wenonah Odyssey. One trip using his canoe and I was sold, actually the first short paddle and first portage I was sold!

I don't care if I'm looked at as "yuppie" or not, having a kevlar canoe has never made my experience worse. I've always wet footed with aluminum, royalex, or kevlar. The biggest thing that I'm into paddling is for my own enjoyment. You can think that I'm yuppie, or think that I'm cool, or whatever you wish to think about my canoe choice. At the end of the day, I'm happy sitting on a lakeside campsite with my trusty kevlar canoe waiting to be paddled the next day.

Can't wait now that I'll be able to get back to the BW after a way too long absence.