quote canoegal: "No, it's not legal and is not the best solution, IMO. Dead standing trees serve many purposes in the wilderness. Wilderness camping has many inherent risks, and I don't think humans should alter the wilderness to remove those risks. Campsites often have dead standing trees within reach of a tent pad. If it's that concerning, and I definitely agree that it can be concerning, I think it's best to place the tent somewhere else at camp or find a different campsite. If winds or storms are predicted, we take that into consideration when surveying campsites and have chosen to find a different campsite on several occasions due to widowmaker hazards."

quote canoegal: "No, it's not legal and is not the best solution, IMO. Dead standing trees serve many purposes in the wilderness. Wilderness camping has many inherent risks, and I don't think humans should alter the wilderness to remove those risks. Campsites often have dead standing trees within reach of a tent pad. If it's that concerning, and I definitely agree that it can be concerning, I think it's best to place the tent somewhere else at camp or find a different campsite. If winds or storms are predicted, we take that into consideration when surveying campsites and have chosen to find a different campsite on several occasions due to widowmaker hazards."

quote Goldenbadger: "

quote canoegal: "No, it's not legal and is not the best solution, IMO. Dead standing trees serve many purposes in the wilderness. Wilderness camping has many inherent risks, and I don't think humans should alter the wilderness to remove those risks. Campsites often have dead standing trees within reach of a tent pad. If it's that concerning, and I definitely agree that it can be concerning, I think it's best to place the tent somewhere else at camp or find a different campsite. If winds or storms are predicted, we take that into consideration when surveying campsites and have chosen to find a different campsite on several occasions due to widowmaker hazards."

I completely agree with Canoegal on this one. No, it's not ok. Dead and down means just that. That doesn't mean that you can be the one to take it down. Dead trees are very often feeding and nesting spots for wildlife. "

quote canoegal: "I would much rather have the USFS make that informed determination and take down the ones that are imminent threats, and I'm pleased to read that they've responded to those reports. If left in the hands of campers, I fear the landscape would be terribly altered. There are already problems with folks violating the rules and even cutting down green trees. Where would the line be drawn if left to campers? Some might argue that every dead tree is a hazard, so every dead tree should be cut down at camp."

quote john 800: "There have been a couple campsites that have had some trees around the tent pads that honestly worried me quite a bit. Is it ok to take them down if they are obviously dead? "

quote canoegal: "No, it's not legal and is not the best solution, IMO. Dead standing trees serve many purposes in the wilderness. Wilderness camping has many inherent risks, and I don't think humans should alter the wilderness to remove those risks. Campsites often have dead standing trees within reach of a tent pad. If it's that concerning, and I definitely agree that it can be concerning, I think it's best to place the tent somewhere else at camp or find a different campsite. If winds or storms are predicted, we take that into consideration when surveying campsites and have chosen to find a different campsite on several occasions due to widowmaker hazards."

quote OldFingers57: "

quote john 800: "There have been a couple campsites that have had some trees around the tent pads that honestly worried me quite a bit. Is it ok to take them down if they are obviously dead? "

How large are these dead trees? How do they look that they are "obviously dead"? No leaves? Dead pieces? No bark at all?"

quote shock: "i understand the rule, otherwise people would use excuse's like it was a danger walking to the latrine etc...so the rules do need to be black and white. some sites do only have 1 tent pad, sleeping on a slope can be a b*tch."

quote john 800: "

quote shock: "i understand the rule, otherwise people would use excuse's like it was a danger walking to the latrine etc...so the rules do need to be black and white. some sites do only have 1 tent pad, sleeping on a slope can be a b*tch."

Point taken, it is nearly impossible to "legislate" discretion or common sense :)"

quote Stumpy: "
Cut them down, if you want to. (common sense)
Don't cut live trees. (although that makes sense sometimes too)
Get you fire wood, from dead & down trees (hey, after you cut down a dead tree...it's "dead & down")"

quote OBX2Kayak: "I'm always fascinated as to why some people think their personal version of "common sense" trumps the rules."

quote OBX2Kayak: "I'm always fascinated as to why some people think their personal version of "common sense" trumps the rules."

quote OBX2Kayak: "I'm always fascinated as to why some people think their personal version of "common sense" trumps the rules."

quote john 800: "There have been a couple campsites that have had some trees around the tent pads that honestly worried me quite a bit. Is it ok to take them down if they are obviously dead? "

quote boonie: "

quote john 800: "There have been a couple campsites that have had some trees around the tent pads that honestly worried me quite a bit. Is it ok to take them down if they are obviously dead? "

I don't know, John.


When I don't know if it's OK to do something at work, I ask the boss since he determines the consequences. It just seems like common sense to me.


The USFS makes and enforces the rules for the BWCAW. I'd ask them before I did it."

quote wetcanoedog: .

here's a "ranger load",this is what you need to tackle any reall tree cutting.
it's a PARK ...."

quote wetcanoedog: "No!!! no-no-no!! first off the rule said no cutting,dead and down only.
second who wants to sit in a camp and hear someone chopping away to bring down a tree in another close by site.do you have any idea how long that would take without real cross cut saws.i have found more than one camp where someone tried to chop a tree down and walked away.any tree large enough to cause a danger if it fell would be a job to fell.i spent 26 years downing trees in my woodlot to heat the house and they do all sort of nasty things on the way down.a tree will jump right off a stump and fly back,the top will get lodged in other trees and hang there.trees can twist on the way down and end up just about anywhere. will you have a chain puller and 50 feet of chain to work it down? fooling around far from help with something that could injury you and you buddy's is a bad idea.
and the buddy factor??lets have a few beers and chop down that tree,it might fall on us..HAR-HAR-HAR..have another,oh hell he whacked his foot,walked into a sharp branch,fell walking backwards to get a look.get the idea...plus if you can't get it down the next group now has a hung up tree in camp.
got a hard hat,real boots,heavy leather gloves,goggles??
it;s not a game folks what we have here is an excuse to give the ranger when he finds you playing Paul Bunyan. "golly it was a danger"
recall the guy who pushed the rock over because it might fall?
i'll go on--are you a Arborist who can really tell if a tree needs to come down or just someone who wants to play around with a ax and how well can you handle a tool like that.can you keep it sharp because it will need it for any real work.

here's a "ranger load",this is what you need to tackle any reall tree cutting.
i'm getting to worked up here..it's a PARK and not your back yard to fool around in,if there is a danger MOVE and don't screw around with public property...."

quote kanoes: "

quote boonie: "

quote john 800: "There have been a couple campsites that have had some trees around the tent pads that honestly worried me quite a bit. Is it ok to take them down if they are obviously dead? "

I don't know, John.

When I don't know if it's OK to do something at work, I ask the boss since he determines the consequences. It just seems like common sense to me.

The USFS makes and enforces the rules for the BWCAW. I'd ask them before I did it."

in my mind, safety trumps regulations. if I think I could down one in a safe manner...I would. FS personnel do it all the time."

quote onepaddleshort: "It is a poorly written rule in my opinion; I’ve always found it a little confusing. “Dead and down” could mean it has to be both dead and down, or it could mean that you can take dead wood (including standing dead wood), and down wood. If they mean that you should only take wood that is down that is all it should say. Only cut and burn wood that is down. If it’s down, it’s dead- there’s no need to call it dead and down."

quote Canoearoo: "

quote onepaddleshort: "It is a poorly written rule in my opinion; I’ve always found it a little confusing. “Dead and down” could mean it has to be both dead and down, or it could mean that you can take dead wood (including standing dead wood), and down wood. If they mean that you should only take wood that is down that is all it should say. Only cut and burn wood that is down. If it’s down, it’s dead- there’s no need to call it dead and down."

The ranger told us that a down but still green tree can not be cut. That a dead but still standing tree can not be cut. Only if it is dead (not green) and laying on the ground can you cut it"

quote onepaddleshort: "It is a poorly written rule in my opinion; I’ve always found it a little confusing. “Dead and down” could mean it has to be both dead and down, or it could mean that you can take dead wood (including standing dead wood), and down wood. If they mean that you should only take wood that is down that is all it should say. Only cut and burn wood that is down. If it’s down, it’s dead- there’s no need to call it dead and down."

quote myceliaman: "Absolutely not!!! Micro organisms and mycological are active and going on underneath what you see. Do not cut them down. I can't stress this enough"

quote onepaddleshort: "It is a poorly written rule in my opinion; I’ve always found it a little confusing. “Dead and down” could mean it has to be both dead and down, or it could mean that you can take dead wood (including standing dead wood), and down wood. If they mean that you should only take wood that is down that is all it should say. Only cut and burn wood that is down. If it’s down, it’s dead- there’s no need to call it dead and down."

quote Woodtick: "There is no shortage of dead, standing timber in the BWCA. We're not talking about the spotted owl here or some three legged toad. Trees grow, then die, then fall down. I don't see an issue with helping an obviously dead one near the tent pad to the ground if it poses a danger and can be safely pushed over."

quote kanoes: "

quote myceliaman: "Absolutely not!!! Micro organisms and mycological are active and going on underneath what you see. Do not cut them down. I can't stress this enough"

so by saying that you are also saying we shouldn't have campfires period. those same valuable organisms are active in down/dead wood too."

quote myceliaman: "

quote kanoes: "

quote myceliaman: "Absolutely not!!! Micro organisms and mycological are active and going on underneath what you see. Do not cut them down. I can't stress this enough"

so by saying that you are also saying we shouldn't have campfires period. those same valuable organisms are active in down/dead wood too."

No that's what you just said. And as opposed to getting into another barbed discussion in this forum. Ill take the high road a d say thank you for your statement.."

quote okinaw55: "At that point, the campsite is rendered useless really .. why not get it out of the way? "

quote DanL: "
X2

Folks, this whole discussion is ridiculous!!

The BWCAW is a managed WILDERNESS area, it is not a Park, not a campground, not a playground, again, it's a WILDERNESS area.
Dan
"quote>

Man made fake wilderness that been logged mined and impacted by humans for hundreds of years.

Get over it in is not pristine by any means.

A fire destroys thousands of trees and the area recovers just because man does it doesn't means it well not recover.

quote nctry: "When old growth goes either new growth happens and or other growth flourishes more. Shade from a tree laying on top of me isn't the kind of shade I'd want. My only issue with taking down a tree that is thought to be a danger is the fact that it probably is to big to be done with a little camp saw anyways. It's probably feasible to take a tree down, but it's the where do you draw the line. Give some people an inch and you have some serious tree cutting done. I get the OP question... I wouldn't be upset if the tree was removed. But with the number of people using the BW I'd be concerned if people started doing hack jobs of cutting down trees and for some peoples safety."

quote canoegal: "No, it's not legal and is not the best solution, IMO. Dead standing trees serve many purposes in the wilderness. Wilderness camping has many inherent risks, and I don't think humans should alter the wilderness to remove those risks. Campsites often have dead standing trees within reach of a tent pad. If it's that concerning, and I definitely agree that it can be concerning, I think it's best to place the tent somewhere else at camp or find a different campsite. If winds or storms are predicted, we take that into consideration when surveying campsites and have chosen to find a different campsite on several occasions due to widowmaker hazards."

quote 2old4U: "

quote canoegal: "No, it's not legal and is not the best solution, IMO. Dead standing trees serve many purposes in the wilderness. Wilderness camping has many inherent risks, and I don't think humans should alter the wilderness to remove those risks. Campsites often have dead standing trees within reach of a tent pad. If it's that concerning, and I definitely agree that it can be concerning, I think it's best to place the tent somewhere else at camp or find a different campsite. If winds or storms are predicted, we take that into consideration when surveying campsites and have chosen to find a different campsite on several occasions due to widowmaker hazards."

It's also not "ok" to move your tent, thus creating a new location for a tent pad. That can lead to destruction of yet more roots, which can then add to just another dead tree hanging over the newly created tent pad. I know what I'd do, but then I was on a portage crew who's job it was to remove such snags. In fact it was one of the first things we did when we landed at a sight...check the privy and check for snags and take care of both ASAP. But, truthfully, how many of you bring along a two-man crosscut saw on your trips???"

quote 2old4U: "

quote canoegal: "No, it's not legal and is not the best solution, IMO. Dead standing trees serve many purposes in the wilderness. Wilderness camping has many inherent risks, and I don't think humans should alter the wilderness to remove those risks. Campsites often have dead standing trees within reach of a tent pad. If it's that concerning, and I definitely agree that it can be concerning, I think it's best to place the tent somewhere else at camp or find a different campsite. If winds or storms are predicted, we take that into consideration when surveying campsites and have chosen to find a different campsite on several occasions due to widowmaker hazards."

It's also not "ok" to move your tent, thus creating a new location for a tent pad. That can lead to destruction of yet more roots, which can then add to just another dead tree hanging over the newly created tent pad. I know what I'd do, but then I was on a portage crew who's job it was to remove such snags. In fact it was one of the first things we did when we landed at a sight...check the privy and check for snags and take care of both ASAP. But, truthfully, how many of you bring along a two-man crosscut saw on your trips???"

quote bumabu: "Not legal, but totally OK in my opinion.


I took a couple down last week, standing dead maples with no branches. They are the best firewood you can find. Letting them rot while vertical is a waste. I left a whole one cut and split at the campsite for the next guy to enjoy. I don't go on canoe trips to be legalistic. Use your noodle and do what you think is right. If a ranger shows up and wants to bust your chops over some wood, own it like a man and take what comes. "

quote RangerRik: "

quote bumabu: "Not legal, but totally OK in my opinion.



I took a couple down last week, standing dead maples with no branches. They are the best firewood you can find. Letting them rot while vertical is a waste. I left a whole one cut and split at the campsite for the next guy to enjoy. I don't go on canoe trips to be legalistic. Use your noodle and do what you think is right. If a ranger shows up and wants to bust your chops over some wood, own it like a man and take what comes. "

How about you write to a ranger your name and address and explain what you did as see what happens, Man...


"

quote canoegal: "

quote 2old4U: "

quote canoegal: "No, it's not legal and is not the best solution, IMO. Dead standing trees serve many purposes in the wilderness. Wilderness camping has many inherent risks, and I don't think humans should alter the wilderness to remove those risks. Campsites often have dead standing trees within reach of a tent pad. If it's that concerning, and I definitely agree that it can be concerning, I think it's best to place the tent somewhere else at camp or find a different campsite. If winds or storms are predicted, we take that into consideration when surveying campsites and have chosen to find a different campsite on several occasions due to widowmaker hazards."

It's also not "ok" to move your tent, thus creating a new location for a tent pad. That can lead to destruction of yet more roots, which can then add to just another dead tree hanging over the newly created tent pad. I know what I'd do, but then I was on a portage crew who's job it was to remove such snags. In fact it was one of the first things we did when we landed at a sight...check the privy and check for snags and take care of both ASAP. But, truthfully, how many of you bring along a two-man crosscut saw on your trips???"

Nowhere did I advocate for *creating* a new tent pad, not even implied. Many campsites have multiple tent pads. As I stated before, if you're so concerned about a widowmaker hazard, move your tent...that means move it to another tent pad at that campsite or another campsite."

quote mutz: "It's no wonder lawyers get what they get paid. Three small words " dead and down" and no one can agree what it means. "

quote mutz: "It's no wonder lawyers get what they get paid. Three small words " dead and down" and no one can agree what it means. "

quote shock: "

quote mutz: "It's no wonder lawyers get what they get paid. Three small words " dead and down" and no one can agree what it means. "

i think everybody understands "dead and down" i took this discussion as safety VS rules....exp. if there was a fire ban and it was ice out conditions and a person swamped there canoe and made it to shore , a person wouldnt start a fire to survive because the rules say no fire ? and there was a fire ban opener 2003."

I think the law is very clear on dead and down however there have been a number of opinions on what it means, and a lot of reasons for some people to justify whether or not they follow what I feel is the meaning of the law. I hadn't noticed the emergency reasons for following the law. In my opinion an emergency (life and death) situation trumps any rule, law or policy I will do whatever is needed to get out regardless of any damage I may do.

quote Woodtick: "I can't believe we're still beating this dead horse!"

quote kanoes: "

quote Woodtick: "I can't believe we're still beating this dead horse!"

I find it an interesting conversation...and that's rare for."

quote mutz: "Three small words " dead and down" and no one can agree what it means. "

quote bumabu: " Kawishiwi Triangle



Wine Lake"

quote CanoeKev: "its perfectly legal in the Quetico. In the BW I would do it for safety reasons."

quote Woodtick: "

quote kanoes: "

quote Woodtick: "I can't believe we're still beating this dead horse!"

I find it an interesting conversation...and that's rare for."

The horse must be dead and down too, otherwise some wouldn't be beating it."

quote mutz: "It's no wonder lawyers get what they get paid. Three small words " dead and down" and no one can agree what it means. "

quote 2old4U: "

quote mutz: "It's no wonder lawyers get what they get paid. Three small words " dead and down" and no one can agree what it means. "

I could've waited until I was 16 to drive, 21 to drink, thrown back that gullet hooked fish that was out of the slot (knowing it was going to die anyway), waited to get into the house to take a pee, read the instructions before assembling my kids bike, and drove 55 mph ALL THE WAY up the north shore too, but I'm not a robot...or some kind of livestock with a ring in its nose to be led around by a master. I prefer to live life in a manner that befits me, and I'm willing to take a risk now and then and step outside the confines of the so-called "rules", so long as it doesn't hurt anybody. Cutting a dead tree hanging over a tent pad doesn't hurt anybody; it might even save their life...and I'm willing to pay the fine if a ranger is so inclined to think his rule outweighs common sense. Fire away:) "

quote 2old4U: "

quote mutz: "It's no wonder lawyers get what they get paid. Three small words " dead and down" and no one can agree what it means. "

I could've waited until I was 16 to drive, 21 to drink, thrown back that gullet hooked fish that was out of the slot (knowing it was going to die anyway), waited to get into the house to take a pee, read the instructions before assembling my kids bike, and drove 55 mph ALL THE WAY up the north shore too, but I'm not a robot...or some kind of livestock with a ring in its nose to be led around by a master. I prefer to live life in a manner that befits me, and I'm willing to take a risk now and then and step outside the confines of the so-called "rules", so long as it doesn't hurt anybody. Cutting a dead tree hanging over a tent pad doesn't hurt anybody; it might even save their life...and I'm willing to pay the fine if a ranger is so inclined to think his rule outweighs common sense. Fire away:) "

quote bumabu: " Kawishiwi Triangle



Wine Lake"

quote Ragged: "Was on Sag this past week when Rangers came to my site, while checking my permit they could hear the sounds of a small, totally dead pine that was rubbing against another. After a nice gust of wind and a really loud creek they reminded me that cutting down dead but standing trees is against the rules, " we want them to come down on their own" was what they said.


"

quote andym: "I will say that I like nice benches. I'm not a stickler about that if the wood is already down."

quote bumabu: " Kawishiwi Triangle



Wine Lake"

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote bumabu: " Kawishiwi Triangle



Wine Lake"

I wouldn't be offended if I arrived at a campsite and found these 'improved' seats w/backrests.


To me I see very little difference between these and the single-log seats the USFS provides. Neither are conducive to a true wilderness experience, especially when you add the firepit and the toilets.


I would never take the time and trouble to 'improve' the single-log seating because my time in the BWCA is spent fishing and sight-seeing and not sitting around camp.


However, to each their own."

quote OldFingers57: "

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote bumabu: " Kawishiwi Triangle




Wine Lake"

I wouldn't be offended if I arrived at a campsite and found these 'improved' seats w/backrests.



To me I see very little difference between these and the single-log seats the USFS provides. Neither are conducive to a true wilderness experience, especially when you add the firepit and the toilets.



I would never take the time and trouble to 'improve' the single-log seating because my time in the BWCA is spent fishing and sight-seeing and not sitting around camp.



However, to each their own."

This tends to lead to "one up manship" whereby the next person sees these and thinks "Hey I can build something neater than that" and so on with the next person who thinks these are great and wants to contribute to "making the campsite nicer and improving it" We might as well ask for the USFS to just put in some picnic tables and those grills that are up waist high, oh and some of those lovely metal fire rings you see at car campgrounds. Maybe even some more roads so we can get our cars, trucks and land yacht mobile homes in there.
"

quote onepaddleshort: "It is a poorly written rule in my opinion; I’ve always found it a little confusing. “Dead and down” could mean it has to be both dead and down, or it could mean that you can take dead wood (including standing dead wood), and down wood. If they mean that you should only take wood that is down that is all it should say. Only cut and burn wood that is down. If it’s down, it’s dead- there’s no need to call it dead and down."

quote LuvMyBell: "As I understand it, the BWCA used to have picnic tables at the campsites, portage signs and canoe rests along the portages. Anyone who thinks these were done away with for any reason other than financial costs isn't being honest. We can think it was to enhance the wilderness experience, but it was purely a financial/maintenance decision IMO.

Was the BWCA less of a wilderness back when they had these other improvements? I'm guessing most people would say the BWCA was a better place and more of a wilderness back then."

quote bumabu: "I think we have reached a point in which we can, and probably should, agree to disagree on the issue. I am truly sorry if my way of tripping genuinely ruins anyone's experience, that has never been my intention. I will try and be more thoughtful of how I may offend someone in the future with my present actions.



On another note, does anyone have any blueprints on how to build log picnic table? I can't believe I didn't think of that before!!!


TOTALLY KIDDING, love you all to death even if we don't see eye to eye. "

quote HowardSprague: "Wow!
"

quote HowardSprague: "Wow!
"

quote housty9: "

quote HowardSprague: "Wow!
"

I wonder how many attach hammocks to dead trees, could be a little risky to me. and how often do you find 2 dead trees together.

Ranger in Grand Marais said no taking dead trees down only on ground, I failed 1 of his ?'s at the ranger station, my bad. "

quote zooshooter: "

quote onepaddleshort: "It is a poorly written rule in my opinion; I’ve always found it a little confusing. “Dead and down” could mean it has to be both dead and down, or it could mean that you can take dead wood (including standing dead wood), and down wood. If they mean that you should only take wood that is down that is all it should say. Only cut and burn wood that is down. If it’s down, it’s dead- there’s no need to call it dead and down."

It's not confusing at all. "and" is inclusive, that means it has to be both. "Dead OR down" is what you think "dead AND down" is supposed to mean. It doesn't.


I don't care if you think it's a danger to others when you're in the BW. Speaking as someone who wants to go and hasn't been able to afford the trip, I would be royally pissed off if I saw any of you chopping down a tree. It is not your job. Don't do it. My question is, why can you not leave the wilderness unspoiled? Because that's what you're doing to it for me, a person who hasn't been able to visit it yet or see it in it's natural state. You going around chopping down trees is not nature taking its course. I am extremely disappointed in all of you who think it is your prerogative to cut these trees down instead of informing the rangers and letting them determine the course of action. This is not the mind-set that I was led to believe I would find in the people who frequent this site."

quote OBX2Kayak: "I'm always fascinated as to why some people think their personal version of "common sense" trumps the rules."

quote HowardSprague: "Wow!
"

quote mutz: "

quote HowardSprague: "Wow!
"

This could put an end to hammock camping in the BWCA. If I can't legally hang my hammock from a live tree, can I still do it?"

quote mutz: "

quote HowardSprague: "Wow!
"

This could put an end to hammock camping in the BWCA. If I can't legally hang my hammock from a live tree, can I still do it?"

quote RainGearRight: "

quote mutz: "

quote HowardSprague: "Wow!
"

This could put an end to hammock camping in the BWCA. If I can't legally hang my hammock from a live tree, can I still do it?"

This is a homemade campsite regulations, but doesn't sound too far off of something the USFS might do..."

quote mutz: "

quote RainGearRight: "

quote mutz: "

quote HowardSprague: "Wow!
"

This could put an end to hammock camping in the BWCA. If I can't legally hang my hammock from a live tree, can I still do it?"

This is a homemade campsite regulations, but doesn't sound too far off of something the USFS might do..."

We really could have had fun with this one."

quote bumabu: "I think we have reached a point in which we can, and probably should, agree to disagree on the issue. I am truly sorry if my way of tripping genuinely ruins anyone's experience, that has never been my intention. I will try and be more thoughtful of how I may offend someone in the future with my present actions.



On another note, does anyone have any blueprints on how to build log picnic table? I can't believe I didn't think of that before!!!


TOTALLY KIDDING, love you all to death even if we don't see eye to eye. "

quote CanoeSue: "

quote OBX2Kayak: "I'm always fascinated as to why some people think their personal version of "common sense" trumps the rules."

+1"

quote SourisMan: "That does it..I'm going to start standing up the dead/down trees I find, just to offset the activities of the lumberjacks in the group!"

quote Woodtick: "

quote CanoeSue: "

quote OBX2Kayak: "I'm always fascinated as to why some people think their personal version of "common sense" trumps the rules."

+1"

When safety is at question, it will always trump the rules. Case in point... If the freeway is extremely icy, I will drive less than the minimum required speed. Another case... If you pass a car on a two lane road, do you always pass within the posted speed limit regardless of how long it takes to get around the vehicle in front of you? Safety, guided by common sense, trumps the rules in my book... Always."

quote canoe212: "

quote Woodtick: "

quote CanoeSue: "

quote OBX2Kayak: "I'm always fascinated as to why some people think their personal version of "common sense" trumps the rules."

+1"

When safety is at question, it will always trump the rules. Case in point... If the freeway is extremely icy, I will drive less than the minimum required speed. Another case... If you pass a car on a two lane road, do you always pass within the posted speed limit regardless of how long it takes to get around the vehicle in front of you? Safety, guided by common sense, trumps the rules in my book... Always."

When adverse/winter conditions require you go go below the posted minimum speed limit, you are expected to get off the road. Some fools will still go 70 in the snow and slush. You cannot control this, regardless of how foolish we all know it is. When one of these fools comes up on you doing 35, your gonna be in an accident. It will be there fault(perhaps not legally, but morally), but that will be of little consultation to you during the ambulance ride. Safety is more important than the rules, but breaking the rules is very rarely justified. There is almost always a legal way to be safe.


I also don't see how you passing above the speed limit is safer than just following the slower driver until a safe passing zone is reached.


Safety first. If potential widow makers are too dangerous for camping, camp somewhere else."

quote Doughboy12: "

quote canoe212: "

quote Woodtick: "

quote CanoeSue: "

quote OBX2Kayak: "I'm always fascinated as to why some people think their personal version of "common sense" trumps the rules."

+1"

When safety is at question, it will always trump the rules. Case in point... If the freeway is extremely icy, I will drive less than the minimum required speed. Another case... If you pass a car on a two lane road, do you always pass within the posted speed limit regardless of how long it takes to get around the vehicle in front of you? Safety, guided by common sense, trumps the rules in my book... Always."

When adverse/winter conditions require you go go below the posted minimum speed limit, you are expected to get off the road. Some fools will still go 70 in the snow and slush. You cannot control this, regardless of how foolish we all know it is. When one of these fools comes up on you doing 35, your gonna be in an accident. It will be there fault(perhaps not legally, but morally), but that will be of little consultation to you during the ambulance ride. Safety is more important than the rules, but breaking the rules is very rarely justified. There is almost always a legal way to be safe.



I also don't see how you passing above the speed limit is safer than just following the slower driver until a safe passing zone is reached.



Safety first. If potential widow makers are too dangerous for camping, camp somewhere else."

The only thing I can say to that without being removed or having the thread taken down is a big fat MINUS 1 !!!"

quote DuluthPak: "


I think some people that are unfamiliar with the forest will presume a tree is dead when they see the the many scraggly dead branches on the bottom 3/4 of the tree. As many of us know, the lower branches of many pines will appear scraggly and even dead. Those lower dead branches will make the tree appear dead even though the top canopy my have several vibrant branches.
Now you might see a "snag" which is completely dead all the way to the top with absolutely zero living branches and completely void of bark.
"

quote Stumpy: "I cut down a cracked & creaking jack pine 30 years ago. It was alive."

quote Stumpy: "Yes !
Now I can sleep tonight"

quote Stumpy: "Yes !
Now I can sleep tonight"

quote SourisMan: "

quote Stumpy: "Yes !
Now I can sleep tonight"

I don't mean to offend,,,just food for thought


Decisions "

quote ppine: "I like Woodtick's post. As a forester, it almost always okay to take down one standing dead tree. Especially if it is near a campsite and poses a threat. Just be careful. Watch the wind and the lean. Falling trees is a dangerous business. The main benefit to wildlife is that standing dead provide habitat for cavity nesting birds and some small mammals. We do not want to take all of the standing dead on any one acre, but one tree is definitely no big deal. "

quote Grandma L: "I just got back from the Number Lake area last night. Wow, on several sites there were big hatchet marks and bark removed from standing live, for now, trees.


If the rule is "dead and down" and they are chopping every other tree, what will be the result if people are left to their own decision making? There are just too many stupids out there to leave a gray area in the rule.


Dead and down is the rule - follow the rule or go somewhere where there are no rules."