bear

The following from the linked story:

"Pust also said that video recorded of Rogers and others “punching and the dancing (with bears) and the photographs of Dr. Rogers and others kissing bears, stroking bears, posing with bears and mouth-feeding wild bears, indicate that these animals have not been accorded the level of respect for their nature that the law is designed to ensure."

I don't know antying about this matter, but if ANY of the above is true, then Rogers lost his way and the judge ruled correctly. IMO.

Is anyone surprised by the judges ruling?

Whether you support Dr Rogers or not this is just another example of how difficult it is to win against the government.

I was pleasantly surprised. I expected the judge to sort of split the difference.

quote LuvMyBell: "Is anyone surprised by the judges ruling?


Whether you support Dr Rogers or not this is just another example of how difficult it is to win against the government."

The man is out to get you!

Rogers has lost his way and become a self aggrandizing ass. Good to hear he has been shut down. Thanks to the government for protecting the people and our natural resources from the nut cases. After all, that is their job.

As Ely Turns..... these are the Days of your Lives.

It was the right decision,if it would of went the other way it could of open the doors to all kinds of different scenario's.

Lets keep the comments,well clean.

quote PINETREE: "It was the right decision,if it would of went the other way it could of open the doors to all kinds of different scenario's.


Lets keep the comments,well clean. "

I'm not the one who posted an off topic, controversial subject. Since it is here, I will speak my mind. If folks don't like it, then..........

quote GSP: "

quote LuvMyBell: "Is anyone surprised by the judges ruling?



Whether you support Dr Rogers or not this is just another example of how difficult it is to win against the government."

The man is out to get you!"

Not at all.....

With an unlimited legal budget, government agencies can bankrupt most citizens who disagree and sue them by dragging the legal battle out for years.

Just making the point that it's rare and nearly impossible for a private citizen to win in court against the government.

That's fine. Just want to have the topic last. Sorry.

Off topic,maybe,probably no more than talking about moose etc... It is very closely related to the environment and BWCA. it relates to how bear might habituate at campsites etc. If they are tamed by feeding etc.
That is a bad thing. Like I said the judge made the right decision.

I think you could list it either way(on or off topic),but that is not important.

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote GSP: "

quote LuvMyBell: "Is anyone surprised by the judges ruling?



Whether you support Dr Rogers or not this is just another example of how difficult it is to win against the government."

The man is out to get you!"

Not at all.....


With an unlimited legal budget, government agencies can bankrupt most citizens who disagree and sue them by dragging the legal battle out for years.


Just making the point that it's rare and nearly impossible for a private citizen to win in court against the government.



"

The case in question was about Roger's case. You drag in the private citizen against the government crap. Geez you just can't accept not having the last word.

I don't see this thread going anywhere positive..... but maybe I'm wrong

I have enjoyed following along on FB like many others. I do think he and staff have done a lot of good for bears. I disagree with a few of the things they do and their using food method. I have no problem with the ruling.

quote wildernessfan2: "I have enjoyed following along on FB like many others. I do think he and staff have done a lot of good for bears. I disagree with a few of the things they do and their using food method. I have no problem with the ruling. "

Thanks for getting this forum back on track.

quote GSP: "

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote GSP: "

quote LuvMyBell: "Is anyone surprised by the judges ruling?




Whether you support Dr Rogers or not this is just another example of how difficult it is to win against the government."

The man is out to get you!"

Not at all.....



With an unlimited legal budget, government agencies can bankrupt most citizens who disagree and sue them by dragging the legal battle out for years.



Just making the point that it's rare and nearly impossible for a private citizen to win in court against the government.



"

The case in question was about Roger's case. You drag in the private citizen against the government crap. Geez you just can't accept not having the last word."

Is Lynn Roger's a private citizen?....YES

IS the MN DNR a government agency?.....YES

Did Rogers go to court against the government agency and loose?......YES

Nuff said.

LuvMyBell, You haven't followed MN lawsuits/court cases well :)

This was the state of MN DNR against Lynn Rogers. The state of MN seems to lose these public cases much more often than they win :) So I am actually shocked that Rogers lost even though the evidence was overwhelming against him.



T

Whichever side your on, at least they were thorough and discusses both the pros and cons of what he is doing. This I'd not always the case. I think they made the right decision and an glad that they were so thorough, as it makes it less likely an appeal will be accepted, or a contrary rolling made by a higher court.

quote timatkn: "LuvMyBell, You haven't followed MN lawsuits/court cases well :)


This was the state of MN DNR against Lynn Rogers. The state of MN seems to lose these public cases much more often than they win :) So I am actually shocked that Rogers lost even though the evidence was overwhelming against him.



T"

I haven't followed this or any other MN lawsuits, not being from the state.

I am surprised to learn that the state of MN looses more lawsuits than they win.

governments (state or fed) loosing lawsuits doesn't seem to be the norm from what I have heard or read all these years.

I tried to google this to see if there were any official stats published regarding % of government lawsuits won (state or Federal). I couldn't find anything. So it is entirely possible that my impressions/conclusions are wrong.

quote LuvMyBell: "Is anyone surprised by the judges ruling?


Whether you support Dr Rogers or not this is just another example of how difficult it is to win against the government."

You could make the exact same point about suing large corporations.

quote marsonite: "

quote LuvMyBell: "Is anyone surprised by the judges ruling?



Whether you support Dr Rogers or not this is just another example of how difficult it is to win against the government."

You could make the exact same point about suing large corporations. "

post number 5 coming soon.

quote kanoes: "

quote marsonite: "

quote LuvMyBell: "Is anyone surprised by the judges ruling?



Whether you support Dr Rogers or not this is just another example of how difficult it is to win against the government."

You could make the exact same point about suing large corporations. "

post number 5 coming soon."

I can only assume your point is that you think I post too much. I don't have time to go research, but I am absolutely positive that I could find numerous threads where you posted 5 or more times on a single thread.

Let's compare number of posts, shall we?

Kanoes has been a member since February 2006. That is 99 months.

His current posts count is 22,697. Doing simple math that equates to an average of 229.26 posts per month.

I have been a member since June 2012. That is 24 months. My current post count is 1986. Again, doing simple math that equates to 82.75 posts per month.

If I post too much, what does that make your activity on this forum?

I suspect the reference to post number 5 coming soon really had nothing to do with the specific number of posts did it? That would make you a bit of a hyprocrit considering you post more than twice the amount I do and far more than anyone else on this forum.

I really suspect that your reference has to do with you disagreeing with my position on this thread and probably others considering the snide, sarcastic remarks you have hurled in my direction over the last several months.

I didn't realize that to escape the wrath of the great Kanoes, you had to agree with his positions. I would have thought that it was okay to have differing opinions as long as you didn't get mean or personal. Obviously, this is not the case for some.

Point to a controversial thread that I have started or to a specific post where I have gotten personal or mean spirited towards a BWCA.com member and I will apologize. I don't think you will find any examples.

Differing opinions are fine IMO and make conversations intersting. It's how you handle and respond to them that determines the character of a person.

quote bojibob: "As Ely Turns..... these are the Days of your Lives."

Exactly what I was thinking. Ely has more drama per capita than any other on Earth.

quote Soledad: "

quote bojibob: "As Ely Turns..... these are the Days of your Lives."

Exactly what I was thinking. Ely has more drama per capita than any other on Earth."

We got some pretty good drama rolling here....but it was to be expected. All the pot stirrers want in

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote timatkn: "LuvMyBell, You haven't followed MN lawsuits/court cases well :)



This was the state of MN DNR against Lynn Rogers. The state of MN seems to lose these public cases much more often than they win :) So I am actually shocked that Rogers lost even though the evidence was overwhelming against him.




T"

I haven't followed this or any other MN lawsuits, not being from the state.


I am surprised to learn that the state of MN looses more lawsuits than they win.


governments (state or fed) loosing lawsuits doesn't seem to be the norm from what I have heard or read all these years.


I tried to google this to see if there were any official stats published regarding % of government lawsuits won (state or Federal). I couldn't find anything. So it is entirely possible that my impressions/conclusions are wrong."

Taking me too seriously. I don't know what the actual percent is---more of joke of how inept government can be at times. The perception in MN is that they lose more than they win thoug---especially the U of M seems to lose a high profile case yearly.

T

T

I agree keep it civil, but arguments and conflict can be good. How else do you learn if everyone just agrees with you all the time?
T

quote timatkn: "I agree keep it civil, but arguments and conflict can be good. How else do you learn if everyone just agrees with you all the time?
T"

I totally agree.

From the last paragraph of the article, his research results used in the hearings will remain confidential. The DNR wanted them to be made public. As a taxpayer in MN I would like to see the results of his research. I thought that was part of the "permit process" when he was granted a permit for "research". I think that is a fair request.
CB

quote Soledad: "

quote bojibob: "As Ely Turns..... these are the Days of your Lives."

Exactly what I was thinking. Ely has more drama per capita than any other on Earth."

Hmmm, let us keep in mind that "Ely drama" as some are calling it,is normally performed in the court rooms of the Twin Cities, by people not from Ely!!

quote Cedarboy: "From the last paragraph of the article, his research results used in the hearings will remain confidential. The DNR wanted them to be made public. As a taxpayer in MN I would like to see the results of his research. I thought that was part of the "permit process" when he was granted a permit for "research". I think that is a fair request.
CB"

Agreed! He needs to start pumping out some of this "data" and that is hopefully what the permitting will push him to do. Without scientific research data it's just a multimedia circus. He has produced very little thus far imo.

quote Cedarboy: "From the last paragraph of the article, his research results used in the hearings will remain confidential. The DNR wanted them to be made public. As a taxpayer in MN I would like to see the results of his research. I thought that was part of the "permit process" when he was granted a permit for "research". I think that is a fair request.
CB"

Good point, my only guess is since he was losing the DNR permit he no longer had to make the research public. Seems weird though that supposedly the purpose of all his work was to inform the public now he doesn't want to?

T

If he would of start writing papers it would make his bear center much more creditable and the future for it and further research centered at this location very likely.
I can't get into his head what he is thinking,but it seems it is more about himself than the bears or his fellow employees.

He once proposed in the 70's with USFS and maybe he did it. To bottle feed deer fawns and artificially feed deer so they wuld be tame and he could study them in the wild. Somethings missing here also,no wild left in the deer.

quote PINETREE: "If he would of start writing papers it would make his bear center much more creditable and the future for it and further research centered at this location very likely.
I can't get into his head what he is thinking,but it seems it is more about himself than the bears or his fellow employees.


He once proposed in the 70's with USFS and maybe he did it. To bottle feed deer fawns and artificially feed deer so they wuld be tame and he could study them in the wild. Somethings missing here also,no wild left in the deer.

"

Yes much more science needs to be published.

As I have mentioned before I think he has gotten caught up in this new multimedia world and has a lot of staff including the younger crowd who have surely pushed for this and it's not all a direct reflection of him. I certainly don't know but, maybe he is just not able to figure it out. Doing real scientific research and quality publishing of data is not easy but, you would think he could get someone who could if he has all this data.

This using food versus shooting a dart gosh forbid combined with the Internet has feed into a large group of people that are sucked into the sweetness of day to day bear life and have elevated them to pet status. As selfish humans we are so quick to forget the big picture for our wants now. Without the science and real beneficial knowledge gained/shared it's a business exploiting bears. Oh I know.. But But but they aren't hurting anyone gosh don't be so mean..sometimes I think this population has given up and just want to be 15 year old girls in dreamland. :)

I think the popularity went to his head and caused him to get a little greedy...which history shows seems to be one of his attributes. Had he followed the terms and held up his end of the deal none of this would have had to happen. He has only himself to blame. Personally there is nothing left he can tell me about a bear that I do not already know (or can Google) so maybe he should do what most people his age do....RETIRE and go fishing!

quote LuvMyBell: "

quote GSP: "

quote LuvMyBell: "Is anyone surprised by the judges ruling?



Whether you support Dr Rogers or not this is just another example of how difficult it is to win against the government."

The man is out to get you!"

Not at all.....


With an unlimited legal budget, government agencies can bankrupt most citizens who disagree and sue them by dragging the legal battle out for years.


Just making the point that it's rare and nearly impossible for a private citizen to win in court against the government.



"

It's especially rare when your claim against the government is just plain silly.

Filing any kind of legal claim against the government for being injured, wrongful death of a family member, destruction of property etc. means you probably have at least SOME teeth behind your claim.

But when your main thrust is that the government is "jealous" of you, you're really reaching. I kinda figured he wasn't going to prevail as soon as I saw that this was his main angle.

Also, rather than having the DNR publicize any of his alleged "research," I'd be more interested in seeing details on his income, tax returns, and how he makes a living from the bear center.

Moreover, if the DNR is in the habit of losing legal battles, it's probably because they're a natural resource agency - aka the red-headed stepchild of government agencies. Less money, less resources, less important than every other agency (not to mention usually being the enemy of big business, development, mining, logging, whatever).

They win when those deciding the case have an understanding of the issue at hand, and that's usually in a lower court. However, when the case is taken to a higher court, you often get a judge who doesn't hunt, fish, hike, paddle, or know anything about wildlife, climate, or conservation. And who doesn't care. He or she sees it as a wildlife-versus-person issue. And that's the judge who decides that whatever the wildlife-related issue might be, it's ALWAYS going to be minimally-important when compared to the well-being of the claimant.

I think if Rogers had had one of those judges, we'd be in trouble. Despite the fact that allowing him to continue might be detrimental to the bears and the people who live near them... and despite the fact that it might also open the door for any other would-be wildlife entrepreneur to set up his or her own private, DNR-permitted "wildlife" petting zoo...that judge would see it as one old man's livelihood (and popularity) against the big, bad government and a 4-legged critter. Case closed.

Just my opinion, of course.

Best piece of journalism I've read about the whole affair:



Minnpost

Hummm