What do you burn and what do you carry out for instance we are going to do most of our meals using the freezer bag cooking method do you haul out the zip lock bags or burn and I guess thats really the main question when I think about what do you do with your empty food packaging
Jeff

pack it out. play it safe (and legal) and pack everything out.

If you pack it in... pack it out.

at our campsite on Vera there was trash that didn't burn left in the fire grate. If you take it in take it out! We packed out left over food and every piece of trash from meals, drink mixes, etc...

You're not supposed to burn any trash at all, even paper trash (MN law). Definitely do not burn plastic zip lock bags! Leave no trace...not even a melted plastic chemical trace.

I agree with all replies so far. If you pack it in, pack it out.

Pack it out. Burning plastics and even paper releases dioxins and other harmful chemicals right onto the grate where people cook. Yes, things get incinerated back in civilization but that is done at much higher temperatures than you can achieve in an open fire.

If you don't like the amount of waste produced by freezer bag cooking you can always cook in pots and clean them (away from the lake, of course).

We keep a 1 gallon freezer bag that we put all that stuff in.

We do burn paper towels, but that amounts to about one or two squares per meal which we use to pre-clean the dishes.

I realize that people are going to burn things like paper towels even if it is actually against the rules. If you are going to do this please buy ones that have not been whitened with bleach for your trips. That gets rid of the dioxin issues. They are pretty easy to find these days if you go for recycled paper ones.

I can't believe nobody admits burning.... We tend to find half burned trash in most fire pits.

The plastic beer bottles or Gatorade bottles make great trash cans for the small Misc. pieces of trash... you would be amazed just how much you can jamb into one small bottle. (after drinking the contents first!)

Snipit- maybe we are in a space where you have some very dedicated people who care deeply about the place they are here obsessing about.

When I was a kid we burned garbage all the time at the campfire- tons of fun watching everything go up in flames! But understanding how to protect these amazing spaces for our children and their children to come to and have the same experieince- it requires vigilent behavior.

I am so proud of the garbage bag that we pack out-filled with every icky thing you could imagine! We actually make it a kind of game to see who gets stuck with the stuff in their pack.

If it's paper I normally burn it, but plastic, aluminum foil, anything that will be there after the fire dies, gets packed out. However, we don't bring much trash up with us anyway, granola bar wrappers and aluminum foil from cooking are about it.

If you take all your food out of the packages it comes in and put it in ziploc bags before you go, you don't even bring the garbage with you into the BW.

Just curious Jeff, but did someone steal the "period" key off your keyboard? :)

Not that I support breaking the law by burning trash, I pack it out in the BWCA to follow the rules, but come on people!! The burning of two zip loc bags or 4 white paper towels is not going to destroy the BWCA, the air, spotted owls, otters or contribute to global warming. It is against the rules, plain and simple so we should not do it, but it is not doing harm to the environment. I pack out scraps of foil and cig. butts from every camp I stay at, I toss the giant, half burned chunks of wood into the woods or the lake and I do clean out the fire pit and pick up scraps of whatever trash when I leave camp. It is not the burning of zip-locs or paper towels that we need to be worried about. I also leave courtesy wood for the next group.

Packing things out forces you to make better decisions about what you bring in. My wife even washes our used zip lock bags at home.

Come on. People, you burn paper; I know you do. If it's scrap paper, it's saved to help start the fire if needed. There...I said it!

Plastic never finds its way into the fire pit but paper is fair game. And contrary to other statements made here, the burning of paper is not per se illegal in Minnesota.

I burn plastic, kevlar, aluminum, people, dogs ,bears, raccoons, grey jays, walleyes, but never recycled paper :-)

Chipmunks make excellent fire starters!

I burn wood. Honest. Initial trips an occasional plain white paper plate, and once a tripmate burned leftover chicken hotdish (to my horror). But only dead and down wood in at least the last 10 trips. It's not hard. What is hard, is carrying the garbage all the way back to the cities in the car - ick. :-)

I just pack it out - it's not hard to do. I just put the wrappers, baggies, coffee bags in a zip lock. I rarely have a fire anyway, and when I do, it's usually well after dinner and just wood.

If you pack it in... pack it out.
If you pack it in... pack it out.
If you pack it in... pack it out.

and don't ever burn your fishguts
stick to the dirty, poopy, plastic diapers

quote spottedowl: "and don't ever burn your fishguts
stick to the dirty, poopy, plastic diapers"

hahahaha


in some parts of the state it is still legal to burn home trash! Gasp!

We will pack out most everything. I will confess that we burn pistachio shells, and the occasional tootsie roll/bit-o-honey wax-paper wrapper if the fire happens to be going. Also, old oil/bacon grease we'll usually burn.

Everything else we pack out.

One year while we were camping on Alpine Lake, we had a visit from the Forest Service team. They checked our permit, our latrine, and asked to see our garbage. Fortunately, we had a bag of garbage despite the fact that we had burned some paper items. Now, we are much more committed to packing most everything out!

quote alpine525: "One year while we were camping on Alpine Lake, we had a visit from the Forest Service team. They checked our permit, our latrine, and asked to see our garbage."

Same thing happened to a friend of mine. They even questioned the lack of paper in their trash.

I agree with WhiteH20 on this one.

I always get a kick out people who get up in arms over burning trash and litter, but see nothing wrong with throwing all of their kids diapers in a landfill, doing unnecessarily excessive and frequent loads of laundry, throwing extra food away at home, fertilizing their lawn and the list goes on and on and on.

to be honest- a long standing tradition of mine was buying an ely echo newspaper in town, and, during down time, reading about the local sports teams-softball and baseball esp, checking out all the local want ads, fishing reports, etc. Then, I used a read page for my fire starter. Eventually I read the whole paper and had just enough to start my fires for the trip. I thought this was a good system. Wouldn't burn plastic, but the echo was fair game.

quote gbusk: "I agree with WhiteH20 on this one.


I always get a kick out people who get up in arms over burning trash and litter, but see nothing wrong with throwing all of their kids diapers in a landfill, doing unnecessarily excessive and frequent loads of laundry, throwing extra food away at home, fertilizing their lawn and the list goes on and on and on. "

The only thing to fear is to fear ourselves.

quote spottedowl: "to be honest- a long standing tradition of mine was buying an ely echo newspaper in town,... used a read page for my fire starter. "

Done that, too. Not necessarily with the Echo, but some newspaper we pick up on the way.

I don't think burning a little trash in the BW is a major, global environmental disaster affecting birds that live thousands of miles away. But the MN DNR lists the following about Lake Polly:

Contaminants listed were measured at levels high enough to warrant a recommendation to limit consumption: Dioxin, Mercury, PCBS - Polychlorinated biphenyls, and PFOS - Perfluorooctane sulfanate.

Don't know if that's all from current garbage burning or older pollution, but maybe it's not the Polly Bear we should all be worrying about. I don't fish but I do swim in that water.

Nor do I think it is a global problem if some rural, lightly populated areas still burn their trash (although it would be a problem if we all did it). But I'm guessing that in those rural areas people don't burn their trash on the kitchen stove. And if they are then they should probably stop because it would be depositing nasty stuff where they prepare food. And that's basically my point about burning trash in the BW. Yeah, we all used to burn paper in campfires but now we know there is a good reason to make a rule against it. And, at least to me, knowing that there is a good reason makes following the rule more compelling.

Anyway, that's why I harp on this point every time it comes up. And if anyone wants to come over and check my garbage for food waste or diapers, count loads of laundry, or check my lawn for fertilizer have at it.

There is no rule against burning paper!

quote Jiimaan: "There is no rule against burning paper!"

Forest people saw a paper towel in our fire pit last year and said that it was against the rules. No paper is supposed to be burned. However, they said it wasn't a big deal, just to be aware of the rule.

M

quote fishguts: "If you pack it in... pack it out.
If you pack it in... pack it out.
If you pack it in... pack it out.
"

Riddle me this: If you have to pack out what you pack in, what difference does it make what you pack in?

You can haul in all the plastic you want even though the stuff doesn't exactly compost itself if left behind. However, just bring in your glass jar of Grey Poupon and the USFS will drag you to a tree and hang you. Whats up with that?

quote Jiimaan: "There is no rule against burning paper!"

From Forest Service BWCA rules and regs at http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/superior/bwcaw/documents/BWCAWRulesandRegulations.pdf

"It is also illegal to burn trash, make sure it is packed out with you."

And I don't think they will go for the line that your newspaper or paper towel or maybe print some news on paper towels "It's not trash, its a multipurpose entertainment, news, plate-cleaning, firestarter device."

As for Cliff's comment on cans and bottles being not allowed despite the carry in, carry out rule. I agree that it sounds inconsistent. I think the point is that if someone drops a bottle it may break and leave glass shards around that are hard to clean up. But if you drop a plastic bottle then it is easy to pick it up and take it with you. I'm less clear on the cans except that some of them rust. Fortunately, whiskey does just fine in plastic.

quote andym: "

quote Jiimaan: "There is no rule against burning paper!"

From Forest Service BWCA rules and regs at http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/superior/bwcaw/documents/BWCAWRulesandRegulations.pdf


"It is also illegal to burn trash, make sure it is packed out with you."


"

Wow dude, you're going to have to do a lot better than than that to prove that something is illegal. Some PDF without citations to legal authority is kinda meaningless.

Burning paper in Minnesota is not per se illegal. I'll give you another shot at proving your point and then I'll help you out.

I do not mean to be confrontational or argumentative but I feel that it is important that what is being communicated on these sites is accurate if the intent is to convey what is essentially legal advice.

quote andym: "

quote Jiimaan: " I think the point is that if someone drops a bottle it may break and leave glass shards around that are hard to clean up. ."

That is probably what the point is now, but I distinctly recall when that can/bottle ban went into effect the problem was fishermen pitching their empties over the side. The rationale was they would be able to burn plastic and it would not pile up on the shore. Now they don't want you to light fire to a paper towel up there.

IMHO, the problem with bans/prohibitions on anything is they do not address the real issue. The issue here is people leaving a mess behind them and there is no way to ban everything that might constitute a mess.

quote Jiimaan: "

quote andym: "

quote Jiimaan: "There is no rule against burning paper!"

From Forest Service BWCA rules and regs at http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/superior/bwcaw/documents/BWCAWRulesandRegulations.pdf



"It is also illegal to burn trash, make sure it is packed out with you."



"

Wow dude, you're going to have to do a lot better than than that to prove that something is illegal. Some PDF without citations to legal authority is kinda meaningless.


Burning paper in Minnesota is not per se illegal. I'll give you another shot at proving your point and then I'll help you out.


I do not mean to be confrontational or argumentative but I feel that it is important that what is being communicated on these sites is accurate if the intent is to convey what is essentially legal advice."

i dont think anybody here is trying to give any legal advice i think people are just trying to remind everyone of the Rules of the BWCA. and that is that you are not allowed to burn trash, even paper. that is the rules for this area that we are going into. wether it is against mn law or not, i dont know, i am not an expert on that. but it is against the rules. just like if you go to the twins game they have a broad rule about sportsmanship, so they can kick out the loud vulgar guy (usually a drunk whitesox fan). being a jacka$$ isnt against the law, but it is against the rules. same type of thing here.

quote Jiimaan: "Come on. People, you burn paper; I know you do. If it's scrap paper, it's saved to help start the fire if needed. There...I said it!"

I can honestly say we don't. In fact during the last two years we've had a total of one (1) fire and the only thing that went in it was wood. Wrappers, paper, etc end up in a zip lock. They're still lighter going out than they were coming in and take up less space too.

quote ChazzTheGnome: "

quote Jiimaan: "

quote andym: "

quote Jiimaan: "There is no rule against burning paper!"

From Forest Service BWCA rules and regs at http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/superior/bwcaw/documents/BWCAWRulesandRegulations.pdf



"It is also illegal to burn trash, make sure it is packed out with you."



"

Wow dude, you're going to have to do a lot better than than that to prove that something is illegal. Some PDF without citations to legal authority is kinda meaningless.



Burning paper in Minnesota is not per se illegal. I'll give you another shot at proving your point and then I'll help you out.



I do not mean to be confrontational or argumentative but I feel that it is important that what is being communicated on these sites is accurate if the intent is to convey what is essentially legal advice."

i dont think anybody here is trying to give any legal advice i think people are just trying to remind everyone of the Rules of the BWCA. and that is that you are not allowed to burn trash, even paper. that is the rules for this area that we are going into. wether it is against mn law or not, i dont know, i am not an expert on that. but it is against the rules. ....


"

Chazz, yes people do give legal advice here all the time and this "burning-paper-is-against-the-rules" thing is a good example. Show me an actual statute, rule or regulation issued by the Forest Service and/or the State of Minnesota that explicitly says that burning paper is against the law/rules/regs. And I don't mean somebody's website reference to the "rules," I mean an actual document put out by the government entity that says it.

Andym's source does not actually quote a "rule." It says:"It is also illegal to burn trash, make sure it is packed out with you."

The "illegal" part is a reference to a Minnesota Statute that does not prohibit the burning of paper.

If you want to tell people that burning paper is "frowned upon" or "is unwise" that's one thing but telling them that it's "against the rules" or "against the law" when it is not in fact against either then that's another thing. That kind of discourse simply perpetuates and sometimes even amplifies bad information.

I refer to these "rules" as barbershop rules, because that's where they're typically dispensed. And why people embrace them without challenge is beyond me.

First off I just want to say that I find it a little disheartening that you, or anyone on here, would argue so much for the position of burning garbage and/or paper in the BW. Now is it the end of the world if you burn and wrapper here or there, probably not, but at least in this one small place in the world its nice to know that is not supposed to happen.

Now for the rules. The link above are the USFS rules, they are not somebody’s made up list of good ideas. If you go the USFS’s BWCA page and hit the rules and regs link, that is the doc that will come up. So by my understanding those are the rules. Also I think that on your permit it tells you to pack it out. And if I remember my video correctly it also reminds you of the rules of pack it in pack it out. So I am not really sure what else you need. Again I am not sure why you are looking for a loophole or something to get around it but it seems pretty clear to me.

Again I am not trying to be a douche or pick a fight but this seems like a strange thing to be so adamant about. Somebody asked what people burn, and some people are just reminding everyone of the rules.

Jiimaan, if you want to research the legal documents behind the rules, feel free to do so but I'm not going to do so myself. I'm satisfied with taking it off the Forest Service web site.

Similar to you, I don't like following rules without understanding the reasons and feel that I have explained why I think this is a reasonable rule earlier in the thread. This isn't based on the legal issues but on the production of pollution.

Have a good weekend. Pretty hot and sunny out here in CA and can't wait to get on the water this weekend although it will be sailing rather than canoeing.

I'll admit I've burned paper garbage before.

Am I going to go to hell now?

Chazz and Andym, understand this, I am not advocating burning paper, I just want people to understand that there is no rule against it.

andym: "Jiimaan, if you want to research the legal documents behind the rules, feel free to do so but I'm not going to do so myself. I'm satisfied with taking it off the Forest Service web site."

I have and I have been telling you that you are discussing a "rule" that doesn't exist. There is no rule or law or regulation against burning paper.

chazz: "First off I just want to say that I find it a little disheartening that you ...would argue so much for the position of burning garbage and/or paper in the BW."

That's not my argument. My argument is that the "rule" that you and others are offering as fact does not actually exist. We are a nation of laws; knowledge is king!

Chazz:"Again I am not trying to be a douche or pick a fight but this seems like a strange thing to be so adamant about. Somebody asked what people burn, and some people are just reminding everyone of the rules."

That's the problem, you are "reminding" them of rules that actually do not exist. I am not advocating burning paper, I'm advocating knowledge.

Oh, and I don't think that you are a douche! Nor is andym.

Gosh, all this emotion about a simple rule. Is it really that hard to pack out your paper? If it is, then this sport is probably too strenuous for you. As far as a rule about burning paper 'per se', I believe the rule is about burning trash, which includes paper.

Actually there's no emotion involved...just logic.

If it's a rule say it's a rule. If it's a preference, say it's a preference.

And don't worry about what's too strenuous for me; I can handle myself.

"As far as a rule about burning paper 'per se', I believe the rule is about burning trash, which includes paper."

No it doesn't. Here is the actual law regarding the burning of garbage in Minnesota:88.171 OPEN BURNING PROHIBITIONS.
***
Subd. 2.Prohibited materials; exceptions.


No person shall conduct, cause, or permit open burning of rubber, plastics, chemically treated materials, or other materials which produce excessive or noxious smoke including, but not limited to, tires, railroad ties, chemically treated lumber, composite shingles, tar paper, insulation, composition board, sheetrock, wiring, paint, or paint filters.
***
Subd. 8.Garbage.

(a) No person shall conduct, cause, or permit open burning of discarded material resulting from the handling, processing, storage, preparation, serving, or consumption of food, unless specifically allowed under section 17.135.

So there it is. If your paper is from a food wrapper, or was a paper towel used in cooking, then pack it out. It it is a newspaper used for reading and not wrapping fish, feel free to torch it.

Again, no emotion, to hard feelings, just information.

Why don't you enlighten us all Jiimaan and tell us why you don't believe it is a rule/regulation/law?

Chazz stated why he believes it to be a rule (unneeded paper in BWCA = trash. Trash = illegal to burn, per USFS website). Now it's your turn.

HBB oops, we posted at the same time. Check above for enlightenment (;D

Do we know for certain that the basis of the BWCA rule are the MN laws? Before I heard discussions on this site, I took it as a Forest Service rule (not a law) and understood that it included paper based on the description of the rule by the rangers when getting our permits. Last year I got to hear it all in detail because we were behind some newcomers in line. If someone wants to get to the bottom of that it could be worth calling the Forest Service at some high enough level to get the actual policy. I will agree that the printed forest service policies are not very specific.

I like burning muduro cigars.

quote Chilly: "I like burning muduro cigars."

Good Idea!

quote andym: "If someone wants to get to the bottom of that it could be worth calling the Forest Service at some high enough level to get the actual policy. I will agree that the printed forest service policies are not very specific."

Andym, that has been my point all along. To be enforceable, a rule must be specific; that's what I meant when I said that we are a nation of laws. The reference to burning trash as being "illegal" is a reference to the Minnesota statute. The Minnesota statute is very specific. You learn this stuff in law school ;)

Good discussion.

quote Jiimaan: "Actually there's no emotion involved...just logic.


If it's a rule say it's a rule. If it's a preference, say it's a preference.


And don't worry about what's too strenuous for me; I can handle myself.


"As far as a rule about burning paper 'per se', I believe the rule is about burning trash, which includes paper."


No it doesn't. Here is the actual law regarding the burning of garbage in Minnesota:88.171 OPEN BURNING PROHIBITIONS.
***
Subd. 2.Prohibited materials; exceptions.



No person shall conduct, cause, or permit open burning of rubber, plastics, chemically treated materials, or other materials which produce excessive or noxious smoke including, but not limited to, tires, railroad ties, chemically treated lumber, composite shingles, tar paper, insulation, composition board, sheetrock, wiring, paint, or paint filters.
***
Subd. 8.Garbage.


(a) No person shall conduct, cause, or permit open burning of discarded material resulting from the handling, processing, storage, preparation, serving, or consumption of food, unless specifically allowed under section 17.135.


So there it is. If your paper is from a food wrapper, or was a paper towel used in cooking, then pack it out. It it is a newspaper used for reading and not wrapping fish, feel free to torch it.


Again, no emotion, to hard feelings, just information."

Seems very clear to me. By the way, paper is actually wood, just a bit refined. Thanks for taking the time to actually look this up and provide some sanity to this discussion.

Oh sorry, I thought this thread was about something else....

I feel burning of your garbage should be encouraged . I am not for burning of anything with metal in it (aluminum foil, coffee packets, etc. ). I just believe you would find alot less litter at sites and along portages if people burned it. Look at quetico!

A bit of honesty:

If its not metal, I burn it. And if its not solid human waste, I dont deposit it in the latrine. I am not saying I am on the right side of the law or ethics, but that is honestly how I trip. Either I burn it or it sits in a landfill and pollutes local waterways with runoff and methane gas, I dont see much difference personally.

But in my defense, you wont find dead leeches or left over spaghetti in the water where I stay. For the die hard no tracers, is it even biologically ethical to have a camp fire at all?

And a sidenote, how does a paper burning thread end up with the word "douche" anywhere in it? THAT IS WHY I LOVE THIS BOARD THE MOST!!!