Perhaps this is a question better suited to the gear forum, but I'll post here for maximum effect.

I bought a Thule aerobar/wingbar carrier for my new truck (2017 4Runner). I won't go into the hassles of Thule and the poor directions, need for adapters that they don't tell you about, and the complexity of the parts cross-reference book that makes the federal tax code read like "Dick and Jane Take a Canoe Trip."

When doing a test placement on the truck last night, the canoe is too wide for the bars and canoe holder for it to be better balanced front-to-back. The canoe will sit on the vehicle fine, it just requires more of the boat to hang over the front OR the back than I am used to.

My question: if I have to choose (and I probably will) should I have the canoe loaded more front heavy or back heavy? Or better stated, the canoe loaded substantially more to the front or back? Right now my logic seems to tell me that more toward the back would be better than a canoe that is front heavy. If put more toward the back, the canoe will be less "back heavy" than it would be "front heavy" if I moved it more toward the front.

For reference, the canoe will be strapped on to each cross-bar (two places), as well as the front and back. I do not believe safety will be an issue regardless of what I decide, though I would like the collective wisdom to weigh in.

Thanks

Mike

More front heavy might make it scoop less air and therefore be slightly more aerodynamic. Hard to say without a picture. Sounds like those racks have been way to much work :)

If you ever park in a parking lot, like picking up extra beer, you may prefer front heavy in order to keep people from accidentally walking into the overhanging canoe in back of your vehicle. This has happened to me.

Mike,
I would secure the canoe with more of the canoe out the back than forward. Wind gusts are going to affect the front more than the back so minimizing that "scoop" out front will keep the canoe from wavering, and no matter how tightly you secure it, the canoe will waver a bit with enough wind.

awbrown: "If you ever park in a parking lot, like picking up extra beer, you may prefer front heavy in order to keep people from accidentally walking into the overhanging canoe in back of your vehicle. This has happened to me."

I have a blaze orange flag (used on military aircraft) that I hang down to avoid this very issue. Very much worth considering though. Thanks.

Mike

MikeinMpls: "

awbrown: "If you ever park in a parking lot, like picking up extra beer, you may prefer front heavy in order to keep people from accidentally walking into the overhanging canoe in back of your vehicle. This has happened to me."

I have a blaze orange flag (used on military aircraft) that I hang down to avoid this very issue. Very much worth considering though. Thanks.

Mike"

Thanks, Pete. Kinda my thinking also, but I know nothing of such mechanics, so I needed to hear from others who get it.

Mike

Personally I always like to err on the boat being a bit forward of center because I'm way more worried about the boat getting blown off the rack backwards by the wind than coming off frontwards due to a panic stop...so I want the rear load stops pinching the boat well behind it's fattest part.

But I would not give up on getting your boat in the middle. I'd like to see pics of your dilemma. I have the square Thule bars on my 2016 4-Runner and didn't get an aero rack only because I already had a rack that worked. But for sure the bars howl.

I don't know what kind of load stops you use and I'm not sure if you are trying to make sure that your load stops are all on the inboard side of your towers BUT the not-so-obvious solution for you may be to use Yakima load stops on your Thule aero bars.

The pics below show my 4-Runner rack and also a Yakima gunnel bracket that clamps securely on our CRV's factory bars (which have a cross section similar to aero bars). And there is an even narrower load stop option...check out Yakima Mighty Mounts...they clamp very securely to factory bars. I can't get to mine to take a pic since the wife has the garage set up for a garage sale.

If your bars are even 4 inches wider than the widest part of your boat you should be able to set it up properly.

And don't forget that depending on the shape of your boat you also have the option of just lowering your rear window and sliding the boat right in. Just put down a couple of towels to protect the vehicle. Boats ride very securely this way but just be aware that if you go down a dusty dirt road your vehicle will suck in dirt through the rear window big time.

Jackfish: "Mike,
I would secure the canoe with more of the canoe out the back than forward. Wind gusts are going to affect the front more than the back so minimizing that "scoop" out front will keep the canoe from wavering, and no matter how tightly you secure it, the canoe will waver a bit with enough wind."

That is what I was thinking,don't give the canoe too much of a chance to have leverage from the front of the canoe to the first strap. Side winds etc.

I know people whom didn't have it on correctly actually twisting the front carrier some.

secure a piece of two x four on the rack that extends out to support the boat wherever you want then tie the boat down above that, no worries.....

I have always focused on getting the boat best situated on the racks and the bow and stern end up wherever they do. If my racks don't come off the truck, and the boat doesn't come off of the racks, then it's simply a matter of a bow and stern line tied to the bumpers for extra security.

Jackfish: "Mike,
I would secure the canoe with more of the canoe out the back than forward. Wind gusts are going to affect the front more than the back so minimizing that "scoop" out front will keep the canoe from wavering, and no matter how tightly you secure it, the canoe will waver a bit with enough wind."

This is the correct way . You want less canoe length sticking out from the forward rack attachment point. It's less strain ( it's a shorter lever) on the canoe when subjected to the head winds created by the car speed.

I go more forward mostly because I need to see what’s going on. Like mentioned the scoop effect works more on it when back further. If you have to worry about rack not handling the load forward and such I wouldn’t be tossing that boat on there. The big thing is finding the sweet spot of where your boat rides the best. If the front is sticking up put an extra strap on it. Careful about what you tie to on the boat fore and aft. Common sense should kick in at some point. Biggest factor is wind and what direction it’s coming from! One thing if you have it forward of your vehicle you’d want to be careful at toll booths. That arm comes up pretty fast. Haha.

Have you tried putting the load stops on the inside of the canoe? I had to do that with my northwind to get them on the crossbars to get the boat relatively centered on the racks. Worked out fine.

The less sticking out in front, the less wind getting underneath the canoe. I always try to have mine further back.

Placement front to back depends on the vehicle each design is a bit different.

But one thing I never do is transport canoes with just top straps.

I always that is always use both front and rear tie downs

Well, you've certainly have had some excellent options and advice. What riverrunner posted above my post is especially solid advice. Wind gust can change directions abruptly on interstates and misalign perfectly placed and cinched straps. I haven't always had hood tie-outs because my straps always held up well. On one trip the changing wind directions kept messing with positioning of canoe. Since use of front tie-downs no issues . Get a pair of hood straps. Once you bolt them in they stay in place year-round. If you use flat straps in front to secure canoe give 3 or 4 turns to each strap over the hood before attaching & cinching them tight. Slight twisting in the straps for a 'gentle' spiral which quiets the road hum considerably at interstate speeds.
I have racks over the bed of the dbl cab Tundra and position my Prism where I can see roughly 2 to 3 feet of the bow end from driver's seat. The placement of my canoe is passenger side. (see blue canoe position in Ozzarkpaddlers picture.) I tow a 27 ft. camper too so the wind dynamics are somewhat different (tamer) at the rear than hauling canoe alone. Not as much air velocity 'lift' at the rear tie-down.

Transporting canoes I rarely had the option to do the front and rear tie down thing the way they are wrapped and all. My experience from my lack of experience days was having crappy belly straps and the end straps took over. Instead of letting the canoe flip off the road it drug along side the car til I could stop. Good straps properly used will do the job. On rails that allow the canoe to slide back and forth even a little bit I put a second strap on. Especially boats that may be more delicate. You can be a tad lose and get minimal movement. If your even a little bit worried your rack may not hold up you shouldn’t be using that rack. The biggest problem is people hauling the titanic on top a little car where the bars are not far enough apart... and then drive 100 mph. Terry your rack is back further... your actually balanced on your rack well. If your front rack was on your cab the front of the canoe would be higher and catch more wind. I meet people across the country bringing them boats. We’ll take them off my rig and toss on theirs.
Many times I’ve left shaking my head just praying they’ll get home with it. Last week I met a guy from Idaho in Bozeman MT, his rack was set up pretty nice to handle his new prospector. He balanced it nicely and was very secure. The original post here I read as on top of a car where they felt they needed to go either forward or back vs centered on racks. Typically you go back and your raising the front end of your boat up vs going forward and dropping it and raising the back end up. I voted forward because raising the front up causes more wind issues. Better would be centered on racks... if width was a problem I’d find a way to extend the width of the rack. Each canoe and vehicle are different as rack systems also. So many variables. Believe you me... when I have seven boats on my truck alone and I’m driving in wind they won’t even let me on the interstate with I’m strapping straps over straps on the upper rack and still sweating bricks. Trailer is the same way... top of the boats are pushing 12’ high... electric mirrors are nice. You can see a lot... no matter what you do, get out and check your load more often then not. And change out straps from time to time... they get old.
As I write this I have a request from a builder to haul boats. I’m pretty much wore out as much or more then my truck with 510,000 miles on it. I wish I was as easy to fix. Haha.

"The less sticking out in front, the less wind getting underneath the canoe. I always try to have mine further back. +1

aholmgren: ""The less sticking out in front, the less wind getting underneath the canoe. I always try to have mine further back. +1

"

Maybe I’m getting a wrong message here. But look at your canoe on the rack. It’s further forward then back on two of the three pictures. Yes, it sticks out the back more but in conjunction with the op, you have more “weight” off the front of your rack. So you are more forward, but your rack is further back. You're good in these pics.

mjmkjun: "Well, you've certainly have had some excellent options and advice. What riverrunner posted above my post is especially solid advice. Wind gust can change directions abruptly on interstates and misalign perfectly placed and cinched straps. I haven't always had hood tie-outs because my straps always held up well. On one trip the changing wind directions kept messing with positioning of canoe. Since use of front tie-downs no issues . Get a pair of hood straps. Once you bolt them in they stay in place year-round. If you use flat straps in front to secure canoe give 3 or 4 turns to each strap over the hood before attaching & cinching them tight. Slight twisting in the straps for a 'gentle' spiral which quiets the road hum considerably at interstate speeds.
I have racks over the bed of the dbl cab Tundra and position my Prism where I can see roughly 2 to 3 feet of the bow end from driver's seat. The placement of my canoe is passenger side. (see blue canoe position in Ozzarkpaddlers picture.) I tow a 27 ft. camper too so the wind dynamics are somewhat different (tamer) at the rear than hauling canoe alone. Not as much air velocity 'lift' at the rear tie-down. "

Well, I guess I used a poor photo for example? My boats are ALWAYS tied down front and back and I use the hood loops. On shorter boats, however, I do not use the loops; the bow is tied down to a built-in cargo holder in the bed of the truck. It aint going anywhere tied down THERE.

nctry: "

aholmgren: ""The less sticking out in front, the less wind getting underneath the canoe. I always try to have mine further back. +1

"

Maybe I’m getting a wrong message here. But look at your canoe on the rack. It’s further forward then back on two of the three pictures. Yes, it sticks out the back more but in conjunction with the op, you have more “weight” off the front of your rack. So you are more forward, but your rack is further back. You're good in these pics."

The by far the best remedy is buy a detachable Yakima or Thules carrier for over the cab also,than you can move the canoes forward more. I have my 17 foot canoe just about 2 feet past my truck topper in back. I guarantee once you buy that additional rack and have 3 total straps over the canoes,you wonder why you didn't do it years ago. It is super stable. Than the canoe will extend over the cab also.

Lots of great advice here on this thread, a lot certainly depends on the vehicle, rack configuration and speeds you will be traveling.

This is the setup that I have used from South Carolina to MN and back the last two summers, over 5,000 miles on this setup now. Any feedback is always welcome before I head up again in June. The setup with kayaks we just use locally here. It has fared well at 75+ mph up the whole trip, just always check the straps each time we stop. I tighten the front and back straps, the middle rack strap is just snug.

Some respondents show the use of an extra front bar, or at least pads supporting the canoe over the driver. Unless the factory rails on your Rav4 extend forward you may be better served with a bar mount in addition. I'm tied to a separate bar over the cab and only the rearmost on the cap (red Ranger), rack bar front of cap is only used as a canoe belly tie down, the runnel blocks are on the front bar and rearmost bar. Never encountered a problem with twisting of the bed vs cab.
On my F150 using foam blocks on the cab combined with the rack.

butthead

Thanks all for the replies and clarification.

@ OP I would suggest to just get a longer set of crossbars, if not and to answer your question I would say to side your canoe backwards on your rack until its narrow enough to fit on your racks crossbars.

I have used a (fixed in place) though (3rd) cross bar over the cab and didn't care for it/found it unnecessary. As mentioned, doing so (with the raise in the height of the gunnels near the bow of the of the craft) caused the middle crossbar to not be in contact with gunnels of the canoe and the now middle belly strap subject to over tightening (as the gunnels are not resting the bar) and vibration/noise/scuffing.

Nice thought provoking discussion. Maybe "it depends" is the right answer. For sure biased forward will increase crosswind sensitivity. On a 16 foot (192 inch) boat on a 4Runner with 40 inch spread you have 76 inches of boat in front of the front crossbar if boat is centered. The difference in lever arm length between having boat 2 inches forward vs 2 inches back is just over 5%. Closer to 6% with a 15 footer. The effect seems small. Air getting under the canoe on a 4Runner (which has a flat roof) can only get there by deflecting off the vehicle and the windshield will deflect air upward. So the more rearward the more boat to catch wind. Or maybe some of that air pressure can escape when boat is more rearward. The effect seems small. 3 bar systems are awesome and very secure but I know one woman with three on her 4Runner and canoes will not contact all three bars (maybe perfect if one owns one boat that fits just right)...but for sure just the huge increase in span from front to rear bar adds a lot of security. But for me most canoes I have owned are asymmetric with the widest point behind center of boat. Wind pressure is trying to blow the boat off the back of the vehicle. I want my load stops and straps to hold the boat in place and the front and rear tie downs (which the OP said he also uses) to just add extra security. I hope the OP reappears since 4Runners seem like fine canoe vehicles so I still don't understand his limitations.

I have a bar over the cab and and on the cap. No need for front straps on my Firebird. I haven't put my Northwind 17 on it yet. Like mentioned. The over the hull straps are the important ones

Blatz: "I have a bar over the cab and and on the cap. No need for front straps on my Firebird. I haven't put my Northwind 17 on it yet. Like mentioned. The over the hull straps are the ones "

As you figured out,one of the best things a person can do is get your bars spread out as far as possible. It prevents the canoe getting leverage from straps to close to each other.

Jackfish: "Mike,
I would secure the canoe with more of the canoe out the back than forward. Wind gusts are going to affect the front more than the back so minimizing that "scoop" out front will keep the canoe from wavering, and no matter how tightly you secure it, the canoe will waver a bit with enough wind."

yep and to field test this under actual conditions do a cross country trip with 60mph cross winds in the Great Plains.. Having the canoe with less front than back overhang has an advantage. You will see.

ozarkpaddle

Well, I guess I used a poor photo for example. My boats are ALWAYS tied down front and back and I use the hood loops. On shorter boats, however, I do not use the loops; the bow is tied down to a built-in cargo holder in the bed of the truck. It aint going anywhere tied down THERE.

"

Your photo was a find example of where I situate my canoe on rack. Otherwise, wasn't suggesting you didn't tie-down bow and stern when it's needed. MPG is lame on that Tundra when towing the camper so doesn't matter where I place my canoe.

I made a double canoe carrier that I attach to the ladder rack on my topper the front portion also sits on the cab with suction cups.

Based on this thread I'm going to move my canoe back a bit. Right now I have the bow tied straight down to my hood attachment point. My stern strap is at an angle and the canoe certainly isn't going anywhere, but I'm going to make it so that my bow is at an angle.

WonderMonkey: "Based on this thread I'm going to move my canoe back a bit. Right now I have the bow tied straight down to my hood attachment point. My stern strap is at an angle and the canoe certainly isn't going anywhere, but I'm going to make it so that my bow is at an angle.


"

Looks good. Stern in the front is also an over looked best option with canoes that have shorter stern height than bow height. The back strap does very little so don't worry so much about if it's not perfectly centered. You front straps should be as far apart as possible at the hood attachment. If you can attach it to the side of the hood that's even better. There job is limiting the side to side movement upfront. The top belly straps are the meat and potatoes of keeping the cane secure. You have a solid set up there.

Thanks, everyone! I very much appreciate the input from the collective wisdom of this board.

I am going to load it with more in the back and see how that goes. A new carrier system is always a bit scary initially, so I will make stops to check how it looks.

I'll provide feedback when I get back.

Thanks again!!

Mike