Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Percentage of people using the BDub w/o permits

Author	Message Text
jenrobsdad	07/04/2007 02:07PM   On two threads people have mentioned they feel others have gone in w/o permits or in at different entry points. My question is do you feel this is widespread or a very small percentage. I think for the most part people obey what's on their permit and do have one at the day they put in.
kanoes	07/04/2007 03:44PM   i just think alot of people want to believe thats the reason for overcrowding. i dont think it is. i believe the fires to the east have been the major reason the west has been really crowded over the last few years. that, and ultralight canoeing gear. 20 years ago, alot of people who wanted to trip didnt. now, with kevlar rentals and 5 lbs tents, theres nothing holding anyone back. Jan
L.T.sully	07/04/2007 03:54PM   I think it happens sometimes. I don't know though.
max	07/04/2007 04:18PM   Did you know at one time Agnes had 3 fly-in fishing resorts on it. An indian guide Frank Santineau from Ely (he died 25 years ago) told me that, he guided in the now BWCA in the 1920's and 30's and was a good friend of my dad. As many of you know, there are old roads/trails all over. Before snowmobiling was banned, people went all over the BWCA on snowmobiles, I've been from one end of LLC to the other a number times on snowmobile before the ban, groups of 20-30 people would go from crane lake to Bill Zups resort on LLC. My dad and his buddies have pictures of them at Curtain falls on snowmobiles. Anyway, what I am saying is that some of the locals know about those old roads/trails. One that people used to use gets them to Orinak Lake by four wheeler, finally the NFS put a stop to it, but that is one example, and no, I have never entered illegally or condone anyone that does, but it does happen, but it is a guess to what percentage. I took my kids to Slim Lake for 3 days in June and there was 7 cars in the parking lot, they only allow 2 permits a day and I had one of them, I wonder how many had permits.
kanoes	07/04/2007 04:51PM   opps
airmorse	07/04/2007 08:43PM   I think it happens but not as much as people would like to think.
Nick2890	07/04/2007 09:18PM   I think there is more people who have day use permits decide to stay for a night. By i also agree with kanoes that fires have pushed people westward and filled those entry points. As far as no permits, only a few idiots but not a percentage even worrying about. It is so cheap and easy to get a permit.
max	07/05/2007 07:11AM   Kanoes, I should clarify, when I entered at Slim lake, we were the only car that day, when we left on Friday, there were 7 cars in the lot besides mine, I had the southern most campsite on Slim, we had 5 different groups paddle by and to see if the campsite was open on thursday and friday morning, plus one group that hiked there on the hiking trails from a campground about 5 miles away asking when we were leaving. There are two permits allowed per day, I say my assumptions based on those facts are correct.
max	07/05/2007 07:19AM   I forgot to say I entered on a wednesday,left on friday. At least 5 seperate groups in canoes and 1 hiker group asked for the campsite in two days, thats more than the 2 per day limit allowed.
bogwalker	07/05/2007 07:37AM   I assume it happens (people w/o proper permits) but I agree it probably happens fairly infrequently. I still maintain the bigger problem is group size and too many groups who travel a short distance before base camping-this combined with those queing up for a quick exit on the final day of their trip near EP's means you double (or even more than double) the amount of groups vying for campsites within one or two lakes of the EP then the actual amount of permits issued per day. Lets take the Slim Lake example of max. EP has 2 permits per day. Lets assume each group plans on camping for 3 days or more (pretty typical) and they all intend to base camp to fish. The 3 sites on Slim will be gone before the second group on Day 2 enters (assuming all three sites were available when the first group entered on day 1-which is highly unlikely). Add in 2 groups who ventured further out and are coming back to exit the following day who want a campsite on Slim or near the EP for a quick exit and you have 6 parties vying for three campsites. It may seem like there are some groups in the area illegally but they are not. With 6 groups all sites between Slim, Keneu, Hook and Rice Lake will be full. If all 6 groups are intent on base camping or worried about open campsites further on the people entering the next day will have lots of trouble finding any campsites open when they enter. In this scenario it may seem like some came in without a permit, but all were legal. With groups entering and not having consistent days in the BW (some short, many longer) it will be tough to find an open site near the EP and even 3, 4 or 5 lakes in. I wonder if the length of the average BW trip has changed to fewer days recently. Fewer days will mean shorter trips. Shorter trips means you can not venture too far into the widerness and this leads to more base camping as no one wants to spend all their time on a trip packing and moving each day. 3 and 4 days trips probably mean base camping for most people so they get in some relaxation. This means everyone is looking to camp close to the EP. I think some of the apparent overcrowding is more a sign of the times with everyone having busy lives leading to shorter trips and less miles. I like everyone get frustrated on trips into busy areas where I have to travel further than I wanted to. That is until I appreciate where I have gotten and the quiet I experience. The last time it happened to me I was happy to be on Jordan Lake where there are three widely spaced campsites than on Dissappointment where it seemed like it was more of a state park type environment with everyone somewhat close to each other and people and canoes all over the place. If there would have been one open campsite I would have joined in the party on Dissappointment-I was glad (after we got there) to be on Jordan for the night.
Presto	07/05/2007 08:48AM   As others have mentioned, the only groups that I have seen that are certainly illegal are large groups. Church groups and Boy Scouts are the most frequent violators. Whenever I see this happening, I always note what outfitter they used and report it to the outfitter. It is not the outfitter's job to police these matters. However, I believe that any responsible outfitter would try to influence the group to not violate the rules. Perhaps I should report it to the Forest Service also, but what is the liklihood of them pursuing a party when my word is the only thing that they have to base the violation on. I have not ever confronted leaders of the group as I do not want to sour the experience of the young ones that they are leading. But perhaps this is irresponsible of me? Have any of you seen people who are obviously traveling illegally? Do you confront them, report them, etc?
timatkn	07/05/2007 09:49AM   "Have any of you seen people who are obviously traveling illegally? Do you confront them, report them, etc?" Confront--Nope---I am too much of a wuusy :)----I think if you are close to them and have started a conversation maybe I would try to inform/educate them. Confronting them----I'm not sure about that. I mean I don't stop people for speeding in my neighborhood even though I know they are breaking the law. I might report them to the police though if it is a daily occurance and I think they are endangering kids playing though--so Presto I'd tend to do what you have done or maybe even report them to the FS---mostly I don't think they are bad people they just don't know--so hopefully the FS or outfitters will try to educate them. Tim
max	07/05/2007 11:42AM   Excellent posts about the group sizes, which I agree is a problem at times. I agree with others that getting in deeper is better, but there are circumstances when 3-4 day trips are all you can work out, due to schedules etc, which like bogwalker said means being closer to entry points. I am grateful to have the BWCA to use and hope that it is able to remain fairly accessible to all who enjoy it.
firftr911	07/05/2007 12:34PM   What are these permits that everyone is talking about? ;>)
kanoes	07/04/2007 04:45PM   youre assuming all 7 cars (occupants) entered on the same day. you know what they say about "assume".... Jan
Outamatches	07/05/2007 03:22PM   Quote: 07/05/2007 08:48AM As others have mentioned, the only groups that I have seen that are certainly illegal are large groups. Church groups and Boy Scouts are the most frequent violators Presto, I am taking a group of Boy Scouts in August. We are 2 groups of 4 canoes each. The leader of the other group does not want to split us up other than the camp sites. I told him we should not be within seeing distance of each other. He says we never have done it that way before. He was probably one of the large groups you have seen. I have told him we are not going to do that and I didn't want to see him until we get back to our take out point. I figure I will insist that his group takes off first and I will hold my group back until he is out of site or longer. I want this to be a good experience for the boys and others that we may run into. Boy Scouts get a lot of bad rap on campouts and canoe trips, but it isn't always the boys. It is a lot of time a poor or inexperienced leader that causes the problem. I will do my damndest to make sure our troop stays legal.
Maddog	07/06/2007 05:39PM   Just kidding of coarse. I'm a teddy bear! Really.
timatkn	07/06/2007 07:04PM   good point maddog---that was really what I was alluding too--minus the skull cracking part :)--if I share a portage or run into them I definitely will say something---I just don't feel like I should run over to their campsite uninvited or chase them down then you come off as the one in the wrong. I guess I didn't see the buddy approach as confronting---more of screaming hey moron don't you know the rules!---now that is confronting--but you are right. Tim
stubs	07/04/2007 04:24PM   I agree with everything LT said. ;)
timatkn	07/04/2007 04:43PM   I actually think that it is rare, a violation I think is more common (but still fairly rare overall) is for big groups (like the aforementioned Boy scouts, church groups for example) to travel in packs. That is they have 15-18 people in their group, but think it is still okay since they have two permits--but really they travel as one big group. I have seen this on almost every trip. I know the Forest Service is trying to crack down hence the rule: no more than 4 canoes, 9 people form your group may travel or portage together at one time----that rule was made specifically to give rangers leeway to break up/fine these extra large groups but I still see them. Tim
Jayhawk	08/24/2007 08:50AM   Possible. We played by the rules and stayed off Horse with a restricted permit. Fourtown was VERY crowded but once we made the extra portage into Boot the traffic was light and we barely saw anyone beyond Gun. I agree that most people stay close to the EP's and daytrip from there.
firefrank	08/23/2007 04:56PM   Slim is probably the #1 lake for permit violators. I have used that chain of lakes many times and almost always run into some clueless bozo or definite permit violator. Just like the person above, when 3-4 new people ask EVERY DAY if you are leaving.....there is something wrong. I have had that happen to me before there! I was camped on the central site on Slim once and had a large noisy group set up camp on the small island next to us. (Illegal, of course). When they started hootin & hollerin I went over there and they told me they were on the "overflow" campsite people used when all the sites were taken. This blew me away and I pulled the group leader aside and tried to explain the rules. The next day they were still there with no sign of leaving. We were out fishing and noticed the southernmost site was vacant. I told the bozos and threatened to report them and then they packed up. I was hoping they wouldn't figure out which vehicle was mine in the lot is they left before us! Kinda crazy. I don't think they had a permit I always thought two permits a day on Slim was too many, should be 2 one day and one the next day, alternating so 3 permits in two days. However I don't think that would stop the problem, because of the many violators on Slim anyway!
Bannock	07/06/2007 10:26AM   He doesn't say he takes them all at once. Perhaps it is a group of 8 for a week and he does it 4 times a year.
Maddog	07/06/2007 10:11AM   Presto, timatkn, CONFRONT! You don't have to be a dick, but going about it in a "just helping you out buddy" attitude usually works for me. Say something like, "just so you know..... blah, blah, blah, blah, don't want to see you guys get in trouble or fined. I've seen rangers in the area before." You can even blow some sunshine up their ___ by changing the subject after that "how's the fishing been?" Just don't be a prick and you should feel better by "doing something". I would agree with taking note of the outfitter, etc. and report them that way too. If the dude gets attitude or a big head crack him in the skull and show the little ones why you don't mouth off to strangers in the woods. (There might be a merit badge for that?) Especially when they're just trying to help. The swollen purple eye, broken nose and split lip will leave a lasting impression on any young scout or church boy. And what a great story to tell when they get home to Mom & Dad! "Hey Dad! Trip Leader Bob didn't follow the rules in the BW. A nice man stopped by to warn us that we could get in trouble. Trip Leader Bob was rude to the nice man so the nice man beat him like a circus monkey! You should of seen it! It was cool! Can I go again next year? Can I?" ;^) Maddog “Your bones will build my palaces, your eyes will stud my crown” Max Cavalera
Bannock	07/05/2007 09:26AM   My guess is that it doesn't happen often, but I think a good point was made that there may be some folks that live in the area that know a back way in to a favorite fishing spot may neglect to get a day use permit. That doesn't bother me. I think more groups are getting permits. It used to be you didn't need reservations, just go and pick one up. Once in a great while a quota would be reached and you'd either enter the next day or take your second choice for entry points. Even just a couple of years ago I didn't enter the lottery. I'd wait until our plans were made and reserve a permit maybe a month in advance. No big deal. Well, now if you want to enter a certain date or point you need to reserve well in advance or enter the lottery. I think when the permit quota system was set in place an asumption was made that a certain percentage would be used on most days. I think the NFS went with a reasonable number for a peak day of the week and expected the other days to be below quota. For instance, they may have set Lake One at 18 permits per day because they didn't want more than that to enter on a day, which would probably be Saturday and/or Sunday. I think they felt that M-F may have 4 -12 groups entering. I don't think they anticipated having it max out on all the days. (BTW -- IMHO opinion that would not be a bad way way to adjust the quota. Why have the same nuber of permits available for every day of the week? Easier to administer I suppose.) As I have said before, the group size doesn't bother me so much, but rather the number of groups. Afterall, regardless of the size of your group, be it one or nine, you still use one campsite and it seems to me that campsite availability is the issue.
firftr911	07/06/2007 11:01AM   Perhaps... It's a long trip from Michigan though.
stubs	07/06/2007 05:34PM   Haha Maddog. I say trick them into landing on a small island and maroon them. Go back, tell the USFS about the situation. Citizens arrest, B-Dub Style.
Maddog	07/06/2007 05:37PM   Stubs, There's no Hahaha here. Maroon them? With all the open spaces and deep lakes to hide bodies? I don't think so.
bikehikefish	07/06/2007 05:45PM   Wouldn't that be littering?
Presto	07/06/2007 12:16PM   Maddog- Your Sepultura quote seems appropriate with that last post. Ha. Vigilante justice is such a pleasant daydream.
firftr911	07/06/2007 09:54AM   Check out dalehoch's post in the Listening point under "Canoe Outfitter". Hmmm...could this be the problem that everyone seems to be talking about? I guess I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but I can't see a group that large wanting to split up into FOUR groups.