Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Moose Hunt
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gbusk |
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Patches the Canoe |
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Rapid Runner |
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bradcrc |
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rlhedlund |
Nice moose. congrats. Enjoy the experience. Do you do any spring gobbler hunting? I used to be a non-hunter. I used to drink breast milk only. I like hunting and eating meat. remember the oath..... |
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mocha |
was wondering what comments would be posted to this thread. adding this link from todays startribune, hopefully the reader comments show up, too. 12 year old and moose of a lifetime |
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moose plums |
Nicollet is close to my hometown so it has special interest. |
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timatkn |
Portaging in the gear and packing out a moose definitely gets my respect. Moose hunting is a once in a lifetime experience in Minnesota. Congrats. |
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cheesehead |
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kanoes |
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woodsandwater |
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ktoivola |
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JLK |
For some reason we value megafauna and megaflora more. |
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snakecharmer |
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canoe212 |
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ottoparts |
Hey Ktoivola, is that what they mean when I hear about bow hunting? And, did you mount that trophy on your wall? |
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520eek |
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moose plums |
(Sad really.) I don't hunt much anymore, but I don't begrudge anyone from doing so. |
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bradcrc |
now white tail deer on the other hand, we need a LOT less of those. |
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bapabear |
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mc2mens |
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h20man |
Congratulations. I would love to get the opportunity to be involved on a moose hunt in the BWCA. Thanks for sharing!!! |
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cowdoc |
I think it's great that he got to enjoy his legal, wilderness experience. |
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Basspro69 |
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cowdoc |
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Stormy |
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timatkn |
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ktoivola |
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woodcanoe |
I know some people don't agree with that statement. I used to hunt but not anymore. I don't like killin' stuff. I usually don't eat stuff someone else killed either. But I suppose I'd rather have someone procure their own meet instead of factory farming. OK, I better stop. I don't want to start something. Crap, I already did. Sorry. Tom |
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moose plums |
I saw two guys skinning a bull that was hanging from a crane around Tofte, on Hwy 61 last Friday morning. Mrs Plums didn't like seeing that. |
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Scrubb |
Also, in a wilderness area where, by law, I can leave no trace (I can't even cut down a small tree for a fire); why in the hell are you allowed to kill a moose and drag it out? If I posted a picture of me standing next to an sawed-off old-growth white pine, I'd get all sorts of crap from everyone on this board about how I violated wilderness ethics and am a horrible person, and possibly get arrested for a violation of the wilderness area. But you can post up this picture, on a board dedicated to the preservation and respect for our wilderness area, and everyone congratulates you? I'm sorry, but that's a double standard that needs to be fixed. That, or allow me to go up there and cull the last remaining herd of white pines. /end rant PS - I have nothing against hunting, just not in the BWCA if it's truly considered a wilderness area. |
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dogmusher |
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timatkn |
Moose are considered a renewable resource in Minnesota. The population is managed to keep it at a sustainable level. The DNR only allows a few permits per year and once you get a permit/license you are never allowed to get one again. It is a once in a lifetime opportunity. The Moose herd is managed by Biologists and it has been determined that the hunting currently allowed has absolutely no affect on the moose population. The moose population is not in "dire straights." The Moose population levels declining you keep reading about are for the most part in the Northwestern part of the state not in the Northeast where the BWCAW is found. The Moose harvested are also used for research by Biologists to study. You are required to provide biological Moose samples (I am not sure which organs/parts) to the DNR as part of the hunting license requirement. So Hunting Moose is also used by the DNR Biologists to provide valuable research data about the health of the Population. Hunting, trapping, and fishing are allowed in a wilderness area. People also hunt deer, bear, and grouse in the BWCAW. I guess I fail to see how cutting down a stand of trees that will take 50 years to replace is the same as harvesting a moose that can be replaced by a calf the following spring? Different resources are managed differently based on the science of sustainability. Leave no trace? Please go to Gabbro Lake and try to find where this Moose was harvested? I doubt you will find any signs. this guy practiced Leave No Trace. So once again your analogy is quite flawed. I suspect your complaint has less to do with leave no trace and more about you feel hunting is wrong. You are entitled to your opinion, but I whole heartedly disagree. Unfortunately for you Science and the law currently agree with me :) Sorry you don't like it. My intention was not to get anybody mad. My intention was to celebrate someone harvesting a Moose in a wilderness area. I think that is admirable in this day in age where Hunters use ATVs and trucks. This guy had to hike and canoe into the area and then portage paddle out 1,000 pounds. I think that is in the spirit of the wilderness. T |
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nojobro |
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ktoivola |
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Scrubb |
Fishing is a trouble spot, although I do not fish in the BWCA. Good point there. Who determines what a 'sustainable' level is? I thought nature did that, not some guy at the DNR office. If there are too many moose up there, they'll starve, get diseases, or get eaten by wolves. Humans don't need to have a spreadsheet to determine that 1,952 moose is ideal. Usually, when humans become involved, we mess things up royally. JLK makes a good point that we value mega-flora/fauna much more than smaller flora/fauna, and that is valid. However, generally speaking, the larger the organism, the rarer that organism is. There are millions of fish, bugs, blueberries, etc. There are only a handful of the old-growth pines, bears, and moose. I prefer to let them be, and increase my chances of interacting with these creatures. I do think hunting is part of our culture, and have no issues with it, per se. However, as a culture, we have evolved to the point where we no longer need to harvest wild animals for food. While I understand the need to keep deer populations under control in an urban enviornment, I do not understand the desire to go out and kill an animal like a moose in a place such as the BWCA. It would be like traveling to the Louvre in order to set the Mona Lisa on fire. I hope this isn't taken as an attack on anyone. I enjoy the discussion, and Timatkin has brought up very valid points. |
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woodcanoe |
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_wildlife/wildlife/mac/index.html I would like to editorialize by saying the DNR does a horrible job of managing our forests and wildlife. I am not prepared to say that I like or dislike what the DNR does. I'm only stating that to say a Government bureaucracy can overpower and manage nature is purely ridiculous. The reason our deer population has exploded is directly related to timer harvesting. Deer thrive in young forests. Northern MN has changed from a predominately coniferous mature forest to a fragmented forests of Aspen. This statement is not an editorial but fact. The DNR cannot reasonably manage a deer population that thrives in such an environment. Finally, like it or not, hunting is permitted in the BWCA purely for political reasons. Political interests trump all reason where money is involved. I'm not sayting this for or against moose hunting. |
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gbusk |
That being said, I would not partake in a moose hunt as I feel personally that we could use a few more moose. Now, I don't have any scientific data to back that up, that is just how I feel. Stated above, "The Moose herd is managed by Biologists and it has been determined that the hunting currently allowed has absolutely no affect on the moose population. The moose population is not in "dire Straights". Well, it did decrease the population by one animal that will not be viewed by anybody else during their canoe trip next summer. Most people seem to think that spotting a bull moose from a canoe is the "holy grail" of any trip up north. So one hunter has deprived the rest of us from viewing this particular moose, thusly decreasing our chances of spotting a moose at all by one animal. As far as the the moose hunt being legal, lots of things are legal that don't make sense and I won't even bother to list off some of our fool hardy nonsensical laws. As for the DNR, I think we all know that they do not always know what is right either and they do have a financial stake in the moose hunt as well. Once again, this is not anti hunting sentiment, I would just prefer to air on the side of conservation. Unfortunately, conservation too often seems to follow resource depletion rather than precede it. Thanks, gbusk |
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oldgentleman |
Congratulations to the hunter. I really admire him. |
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fisher |
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JLK |
The wilderness, in most places, including the BWCA, is not a place 'untrammeled by man'. Those were the words used in the Wilderness Act to define such places. For better or worse, mankind, like other organisms in an ecosystem, influences and alters, even in those places we wish to think of as wild. It's good to see relatively respectful discussion of opinions here. It's also good to have places like the BWCA, maybe not untrammelled, for there, as Thoreau said, is man's salvation. I think most of us can agree to that. |
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mamorgan |
I always tend to look at things like this from, for a lack of a better term, an evolutionary perspective. The meat obtained from a moose in the BWCA is closer to how our ancestors did it 100's and even 1,000's of years ago (just with different weapons). I would guess that the natives who used to live in the area hunted moose for food and probably used it for other needs. We've gotten to a point where we don't HAVE to hunt, but that may not be such a good thing. The meat from the moose in the picture is healthier than meat from any farm raised cow, chicken, pig, etc..., even the organic, free-range, small-scale farm kind. The government has to regulate it because the human population is too large. We could easily kill off all moose, deer, fish, etc... because there are so many of us. Back to our ancestors, there were not as many of them. So, they were able to live more in harmony and balance with nature. The DNR just tries to preserve that natural harmony. Now, do they do a good job at it? I don't know. That's a different discussion. Observing moose in the wild is awesome. I saw one in the Quetico on, I think, Slate. It got in the water on one side and swam all the way across to the other side, got out, and disappeared into the woods. Also, saw 2 standing on the shore on Bell. Definitely, something I want to see again. |
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myceliaman |
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overthehill |
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moose plums |
I do not believe that the DNR, and wildlife biologists do everything right either, but I can't imagine where we'd be without them. |
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andym |
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RD |
I am not interested in entering an ethical debate on hunting but I would like to share a few things I’ve learned over the last year regarding moose hunting in Minnesota. -Moose Population, Decline: In order to legally take a moose in Minnesota you must be selected in the lottery. In order to have your license validated you must take a class put on through the DNR. This class is about 50% rules and regs, 50% general discussion about the species. This was a very well ran class put on by the DNR that included presentations by the Forest Service and by one of the three veterinarians employed by the DNR. Some of the interesting facts I would like to share: -The moose population is on a very slight decline: reason unknown. At one time there were basically two populations of moose managed in Minnesota, east and west. In the 90’s the western population plummeted and before the DNR reacted it was all but gone. The feeling I received with talking with both DNR officers and the veterinarian is that this was something they are not proud of and feel party responsible for (because they did not react quickly enough). They are seriously committed to insuring Minnesota will have viable population for years to come. They are not happy with the picture being painted in the media regarding the moose population. Again, the population is declining but it is not as dismal as one would believe if they relied on the media. Current moose hunting program has zero impact on long term moose population growth or decline. As previously pointed out it is bull only hunting with a very limited number of permits handed out. If one bull is taken others happily fill in. Because of this comparing heard management practices currently utilized for deer to moose is probably not accurate. Harvesting moose is not a tool the DNR currently uses to manage the population but controlling hunting is. So then why have a moose hunt at all? Well here’s what I’ve learned along with a bit of my opinion. I don’t believe it’s for financial gains. 225 permits are given at $310 per is $69,750… DNR is just covering its costs. Already mentioned my opinion on population management… I believe the reason is to give Minnesota resident hunters a opportunity to continue a tradition. I believe someone already eloquently posted this view so I will not try to reiterate it. Why is the moose population declining? This is a question that nobody has been able to answer but many are trying. Moose die for a number of reasons all of which are fairly easy to recognize. Old age, ticks, brain worm, and liver flukes just to name a few. All these are easy enough to identify on an expired moose. But there are a small number of animals that show no sign of any of these, appear perfectly healthy, yet have passed. These deaths are what has the DNR perplexed. This is why they ask that anyone who comes across a moose carcass to take pictures, note its location, and notify them as soon as possible. The DNR has also implemented an optional program where they request that hunters who are successful take lung, liver, blood, feces, hair, and tooth samples. They give you a kit in a little cooler with all the necessary equipment. They are very proud to say that they received +80% returns every year. Other states that have similar programs for other species report around 30%. I must say after the last year’s experiences I have much more respect for the DNR and their efforts to insure a sustainable population is conserved for future generations. The Hunt: I’ll give a short synopsis of what when into this hunt and why I chose the BWCA. I chose to experience my once in a lifetime hunt in the BWCA for a couple reasons: -Fewer people, I don’t like people on the best of days (except you guys, you guys are great). When I am out in nature I prefer to be by myself, with myself. This is probably why quite a few of my trips have been solo and mostly in February. -Unique set of challenges the BWCA presents. I enjoy pushing myself and my limits. -There is no more pure way one can hunt such a great animal than away from civilization in a canoe. I found out that I was successful in the lottery this early this spring. My wife and myself had been applying for about four or five years (minimum of two people per tag). Right away I went to work to improve my odds of taking a bull. Currently my wife is due in December so she was unable to attend the hunt. See how I improved my odds there? I made three scouting trips to zone 20, one in July, August, and September. Through scouting, starring at maps, and scanning satellite photos I knew the area like the back of my hand and had three hunting areas selected. The other major activity was educating myself on the animal and how to hunt it. There are some great publications out there but if I had to recommend one I would say Kelso’s book on moose hunting is the best. Other preparations centered on being in the BWCA for up to 17 days. I was prepared to be there from the 1st to the 17th if need be (three planned resupplies back to the truck). We entered on the 1st and hunted Gabbro starting on the 3rd. I was planning on moving the 10th if I was not successful before. I was set up with a full size 3-D cow decoy I built, scent, and a Birch call. On the morning of the 9th this bull presented itself and I was able to take it. It took most all of Friday to butcher the animal. Eight packs were filled and carried/canoed back to camp. Saturday we tried to get to the EP but winds prevented that. Sunday morning we were able to move out and by Sunday night the meat was at the butcher and the gear was in the truck. One long and back breaking day… Bud I had a smile on for all of it… Being that this is a once in a lifetime hunt what one learns is easily lost. If anyone is lucky enough to pull a tag or is interested in what it takes to make a hunt like this successful I would be glad to share. Regards, Ryan O’ yah… The little cut on the eye… I’ve handed out a lot of grief to people who get scoped so now it’s my turn. I have a set of scope caps on this rifle and when I’m relaxed and punching paper the release will give me a bit of a tap so I always pull the cap. Never had any issues in live fire scenarios… When I took the shot the morning of the 9th I was in an awkward position trying to get a shot around my decoy while using a tree to steady… The result was a bit of love from the scope… |
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ducks |
I almost went to Gabbro for a day trip on the 4th but went in at South Kawishiwi instead. We probably would have ruined your hunt and scared away your bull by thinking your decoy was real and then canoeing around it taking pictures. ha ha |
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Cedarboy |
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chadwick |
moose hunts have a low success rate. My friend shot one last week as well. Congrats! |
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Knoozer |
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Big Tent |
I agree. The first time I went to the BWCA (1978) the ranger where we picked up our permit said there were two creatures that lived in the BWCA that we would probably never see, bald eagles and timber wolves. They were there but very rare. Now we see bald eagles every day, I have not seen a wolf yet but have heard them twice. The management may not be perfect but with all the competing interests I think they do a pretty good job. |
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myceliaman |
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Boppa |
Thanks for your post, welcome aboard. I hope you will share more with us. Congratulations on your successful hunt, it is quite the achievement. I would be envious, until I realize the work getting it out. Boppa |
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Pirate |
Here's an idea; I won't shoot animals in the wilderness when you refuse to drive your car on paved roads. Sheeesshhhh... |
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bradcrc |
Pirate: I wouldn't have wanted you hunting passenger pigeons back in the late 1800s either once it was known the population was in trouble, but hunting of that species wasn't stopped and we know what happened there. People on this site have no problems going to Canada or even Alaska to paddle just for a change of scenery, I don't understand why it's not a requirement do the same thing in order to potentially save a major species in this area. Again, I am a huge supporter of hunting and have been for years but I guess I just see a big difference between hunting for population control and the benefit of the species and hunting simply for huntings sake. To me it would be kind of like going to africa and hunting an endangered species there. |
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Ho Ho |
I don't think the DNR is perfect (what human institution is), but I do tend to credit their conclusion that the moose hunt is not having an adverse impact on the northeast Minnesota population. From what I can tell, the two biggest negative factors are White-tail populations, and warmer temperatures. I personally would like to see a lot fewer White-tail deer up there. There was a comment above about wolves and starvation controlling the population, so human hunting is not needed. While I doubt human hunting is needed to manage the moose population (unlike deer, bear, and some others), I disagree that taking human hunting out of the mix is more "natural." Human beings and their hunting skills are part of nature too. And letting populations of large mammals grow to starvation levels is not good either for the animals or the ecosystem. So while I'm not a hunter, I think hunting - at sustainable levels - is definitely an important part of keeping nature natural. |
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myceliaman |
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snakecharmer |
Remove the word "wild" from the above comment and it sounds like something that could have been overheard in a speech made at a PETA rally or vegan conference. Scary. How far has society really evolved if it's unacceptable to harvest a wild animal for food, but it's fine to have someone else do the killing and butchering for us? Seems more than a little hypocritical. Hunting and fishing bring about many of the same feelings and experiences for me as a trip to the wilderness. Solitude, quiet, enjoying a beautiful sunrise/sunset, observing nature...all part of the hunting experience. |
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YaMarVa |
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timatkn |
I had no idea that this picture may get negative comments. I am sorry I was so niave. I did ask your wife for permission before posting becuase I followed along the hunt through her with great excitement and thought others would enjoy it as well. I myself will never probably apply for a permit for the reasons Ryan outlined above. It is just takes too much work and time that I am not capable of performing at this point in life. But it sounds like an experience of a lifetime in the true voyaguer spirit. Congrats again---I am envious of the experience and I hope you let your wife bring a taste into work for all of us to try :) T |
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gbusk |
Great post Ryan, nice info from first hand experience. I'd still prefer too shoot moose with a camera, but the BWCA belongs to us all. |
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wa0yle |
Thanks for the trip report Ryan and congrats on your achievement. My cousins ex said it took 3 hours to get to Rice Lake and 13 to get out after they took their bull. Gary |
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YaMarVa |
Why do you not try their job? Because like any government administration it is run by people like you and me. We have to make decisions. Like them or not, some guy who still has to mow his lawn made these though decisions. If you want government you will support your local/state DNR, if you do not want government you can have anarchy (which currently might not be a bad option). |
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bradcrc |
we had total blind support of government for the past 8 years and it didn't work out so well. that's a bit off topic tho. ;) |
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fisher |
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oldgentleman |
Congratulations again. |
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cowdoc |
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bradcrc |
I'm very pro hunting. It's necessary and very useful, and I have yet to see a single argument against it that seemed to be based on any real or logical foundation. That said, after reading this thread, I still don't understand why moose hunting is allowed in MN when there is low and/or declining populations. It doesn't seem logical to me that killing hundreds of moose a year is in any way a benefit to the population or the state. The best explanation I've seen is, "We figure it's probably not *that* bad to kill off a few hundred" This is not a hate post or anti hunter post, the only thing I hate about hunting is the same thing most other hunters I know hate... those ted nugents and unsportsmanlike hunters who give the rest of us a bad name, and this hunter seems very far from that group and has my respect. |
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speedwayusher |
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mc2mens |
My brother is bow hunting moose in Ontario next year and he began his homework last Spring. I really admire the commitment, study, strategy and hard work involved with his and Ryan's hunt. |
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aandrew |
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Savage Voyageur |
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gbalex |
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silverback |
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wa0yle |
Less than a week until SD pheasant. Gary |
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Loushe |
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oldgentleman |
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Cedarboy |
CB NICE MOOSE, by the way!!!!! |
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kanoes |
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Jeriatric |
Differences in opinion, backed by data and reasoned argumentation make for interesting reading. When we all think alike, it can get a little boring. Thanks guys and gals. |
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PINETREE |
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hapstap |
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fitgers1 |
This thread was a very good read. Lots of great opinions and information. Sorry, I know my posting is going to put it on top of the threads and it might open up the debate again, I apologize. |