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msray53

05/01/2012 09:12PM

There are probably some official numbers of the people and/or trips venturing into Quetico each year. Does anyone know if the trend over the past few years has changed? It seems I've not seen as many paddlers the past few years but that may not be reflective of what's actually occurring.

Mike

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billconner

05/02/2012 05:49AM

Mike - I have same feeling. Also seems much less permit pressures with permits unused.

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boonie

05/02/2012 06:26AM

Does it have anything to do with exchange rates? I see an awful lot of Ontario license plates traveling through here.

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timatkn

05/02/2012 07:07AM

I haven't seen the official numbers but the last 2 reports by The Quetico Park show percentage wise the number of visitors going significantly down. I don't remember the exact rates but I remember being surprised at how significantly reduced it was. Just look at getting reservations, I used to call in exactly 5 months to the day to get my permit and sometimes I needed to use an alternate entry. Now I call in a few weeks before my trip and am fine for a Saturday put in. 10 years ago that was unheard of. The Park used to be their number one money maker of their parks, now that is not the case. I am not even sure the park is in the black anymore.

This is just an opinion but travel is way down in the Q because of costs. In the early 2000's they published a report that 70-80% of the travelers in the Q were U.S. citizens and they thought that they should raise the daily camping rates on U.S. citizens to bring in even more revenue yet keep use at the same level. I think rates for U.S. citizens has nearly doubled since then. Well at the same time the exchange rate became less favorable on the U.S. side. In some cases people are paying triple now what they did in the late 90's and early 2000's, when you factor increased fees and the exchange rate.

The other factor is while raising rates they put the fake bait ban or I should say partial bait ban and barbless hooks into effect. It has been poorly implemented and rubbed many people the wrong way as being hippocritical. Filling quotas went down again after the fishing reg change, but they were already going down significantly by then so it probably had an affect but I don't know if it was significant or not.

Top it off with the economy tanking in 2008 people have less dispoable income now a days.

So I think it is multi-factorial, but unfortunately at every turn the Q seems to have guessed wrong on revenue streams. Instead of increasing revenue as they thought would happen they have significantly decreased use and revenue. I know they are not happy with the current money brought in, I just hope it doesn't affect the viability of the park.

I personally---selfishly like the way the park currently is. I hate scheduling vacation 5 months in advance. I love the fishing and the seclusion I get in the Park.

T

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arctic

05/02/2012 07:24AM

I think it might be related to the overall permit costs of going to Quetico (fees plus RABC), as well as the overall North American trend of people spending less time doing outdoor pursuits.

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timatkn

05/02/2012 07:39AM

quote arctic: "I think it might be related to the overall permit costs of going to Quetico (fees plus RABC), as well as the overall North American trend of people spending less time doing outdoor pursuits."

I agree with the fees thing Arctic for the reasons above, but not the RABC. THe Park was literally packed 10-12 years ago and the RABC was still required at that time and it is still the same cost it is today. When RABC's were first required Q use still went up at first. That factor hasn't changed, but the Park has raised the daily use fees several times in the last 10 years.

Another cost I forgot was tows to the southern entries. Due to gas prices rising, they have nearly doubled. I am sure that is a factor as well for at least the southern entry.

T

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PINETREE

05/02/2012 08:00AM

They were trying to get more people to enter thru the northern entry points with cheaper rates,wonder how that is going? By doing that you spend money in Canada. Another benefit of the Northern route,no RABC is needed.I think it will trend back up in time again.Most outdoor activities were down the last few years.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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timatkn

05/02/2012 08:13AM

quote PINETREE: "They were trying to get more people to enter thru the northern entry points with cheaper rates,wonder how that is going? By doing that you spend money in Canada. Another benefit of the Northern route,no RABC is needed.I think it will trend back up in time again.Most outdoor activities were down the last few years. "

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not :) But Northern usage went down when they raised fees on the southern entries. Every entry has consistently gone down since 2004/2005. Many Northern outfitters have gone out of business and are not happy with the way the park has been managed. But, who is ever happy with their government though ;)

T

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BnD

05/02/2012 08:31AM

For what its worth, I agree with the comments above. Like all of us I have put a pin to the costs to justify it to my better half. The total costs are surprising starting from St. Louis, MO. Thank goodness I have all my own gear and canoe. If I had to pay the outfitters $1000 or $500 each for my son and I for complete outfitting that trip would be in the $2500 range for my son and I.
If you don't have your own gear is totally not competitive with other fishing options in Canada unless your just in love with Quetico Park, canoeing, camping and isolation. I can't see this trend changing course even if they lower camping fees. Canadian Officials can't lower fees enough to make a difference and they have no control over outfitting fees. Not to mention the younger generation has no interest in outdoor activities. Enjoy the isolation. Paddle on. BnD

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timatkn

05/02/2012 09:51AM

Good point. I brought my Dad to the Q a few times and he loved it, but he quite after the second visit saying he could stay at a resort with a bed for about the same price he was paying for a trip to Quetico. He just found it hard to rough it for the price point. that was even with me providing the gear for free. If you are hardcore like myself it doesn't matter. For the more casual user the resort analogy/price point makes sense.

So I don't personally think it is too expensive for what I get, but I can see how others have steered away from the Q over the years with that line of thinking.

T

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PINETREE

05/02/2012 12:02PM

The north end last year was about $5.00 less per night for non resident Canada. Maybe they raised it to match,I don't know?
That said where can you go and have that vast of area and excellent fishing to yourself. The price is higher than the past but still a bargain.
About 10 years ago or so it was like $7.50/night and we had a exchange rate of 65 cents to their dollar. At one time off season(self registration was 1/2 price and maybe free before that,I can't remember for sure on that).
I THINK WE WERE SPOILED.
I do wish after lets say you pay for 5 nights,there would be no extra cost for so many days extra.Maybe a initial fee and no extra cost for so many days? Something different. A season pass I would like even if it cost $200.00. Just ideas.

I do know they are on a tight budget and get less money from their General revenue than in past.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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PineKnot

05/02/2012 12:06PM

Good comments. I'll add one more....the "wussification" of America. Quetico is just physically hard on the body.

Add in the hassle of the permits and higher daily fees. And not only is it expensive, it's almost fished out!

Do what you can, with what you have, where you are -- Teddy Roosevelt

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Bushwacker

05/02/2012 01:44PM

quote timatkn: "I haven't seen the official numbers but the last 2 reports by The Quetico Park show percentage wise the number of visitors going significantly down. I don't remember the exact rates but I remember being surprised at how significantly reduced it was. Just look at getting reservations, I used to call in exactly 5 months to the day to get my permit and sometimes I needed to use an alternate entry. Now I call in a few weeks before my trip and am fine for a Saturday put in. 10 years ago that was unheard of. The Park used to be their number one money maker of their parks, now that is not the case. I am not even sure the park is in the black anymore.

This is just an opinion but travel is way down in the Q because of costs. In the early 2000's they published a report that 70-80% of the travelers in the Q were U.S. citizens and they thought that they should raise the daily camping rates on U.S. citizens to bring in even more revenue yet keep use at the same level. I think rates for U.S. citizens has nearly doubled since then. Well at the same time the exchange rate became less favorable on the U.S. side. In some cases people are paying triple now what they did in the late 90's and early 2000's, when you factor increased fees and the exchange rate.

The other factor is while raising rates they put the fake bait ban or I should say partial bait ban and barbless hooks into effect. It has been poorly implemented and rubbed many people the wrong way as being hippocritical. Filling quotas went down again after the fishing reg change, but they were already going down significantly by then so it probably had an affect but I don't know if it was significant or not.

Top it off with the economy tanking in 2008 people have less dispoable income now a days.

So I think it is multi-factorial, but unfortunately at every turn the Q seems to have guessed wrong on revenue streams. Instead of increasing revenue as they thought would happen they have significantly decreased use and revenue. I know they are not happy with the current money brought in, I just hope it doesn't affect the viability of the park.

I personally---selfishly like the way the park currently is. I hate scheduling vacation 5 months in advance. I love the fishing and the seclusion I get in the Park.

T"

Good post. I suspect you are correct when you write they are unhappy with decresed revenue but wonder if the thought process is, at least by few in the management organization, they'll take less revenue as a trade off to futher limit human access/impact.

"...not all those who wander are lost..." JRR Tolkien.

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bobbernumber3

05/02/2012 06:40PM

quote timatkn: I agree with the fees thing Arctic for the reasons above, but not the RABC. THe Park was literally packed 10-12 years ago and the RABC was still required at that time and it is still the same cost it is today. When RABC's were first required Q use still went up at first. That factor hasn't changed, but the Park has raised the daily use fees several times in the last 10 years.

Another cost I forgot was tows to the southern entries. Due to gas prices rising, they have nearly doubled. I am sure that is a factor as well for at least the southern entry.

T"
RABC costs have in effect doubled as they used to be good for 2 years but now are only good for one year. And don't forget the added cost of a Sportsman Card required to buy a fishing license. A trip to the Q is 2x the price of the same trip to BWCA... but I will be entering the Q on June 2 for a week fishing trip with the guy's. Still a whale of a deal!

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PINETREE

05/02/2012 07:12PM

Quetico's reservation fee is CN$12.00 plus a $100 deposit. Camping fees per night for non-resident adults are $15.00 for northern entries, $21.50 for Cache Bay, Prairie Portage & Kings Point and $17.00 for Lac La Croix. Children and residents are less expensive.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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tumblehome

05/02/2012 09:13PM

My take is that Quetico is losing visitors due to all of the above mentioned. Any one of them is not going to have a large effect on usage, but combine many negative factors and it becomes substantial.

Poor Economy
High gas prices
Poor exchange rate
fishing regulations
fees

I'm a hardcore Q camper and as long as I have enough money to pay for the trip, I'll continue to go. All of my above mentioned issues except fishing regulations have made my trip substantially more expensive than the good ole' days. Let's face it. Going to the Q is not an easy task. It requires a lot of knowledge on navigating the rules and permits, and it takes more money.

The wussification factor will continue to see fewer visitors to our wild places too. Kids these days do facebook. When I was a kid, I made forts in the woods.

Tom

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Basser

05/02/2012 10:30PM

wussification factor - love that! True, the combination of higher fees, live bait ban, poor economy, high gas prices, lost jobs in the middle class who were a big % of Quetico users, and the "wussification factor" have all doomed usage numbers to be low for a long time. For those who can still afford, and desire, to go the increased solitude is a good thing. If you are among that lucky group maybe we'll meet on a portage some day. I do bemoan the fewer kids/young people that are NOT going to Quetico today as they will be the ones needed to carry the torch to protect wild lands like Quetico in the future.

Basser

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GraniteCliffs

05/02/2012 10:40PM

I concur with all of the astute observations above but also add a couple of thoughts:
Quetico travel actually increased the past couple of years after a decade of decline. I was told by the Park that it went up 4% in 2010 and a similar number in 2011.
Another very significant factor is Canada's restriction on border crossing in terms of criminal convictions. The DWI issue for one person often results in the entire group staying in the BW. I have worked in criminal justice for years and can not tell you how many calls we get in this regard. Canada, I believe, is looking at eliminating some of these prohibitions.
Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, is the age factor. There are several studies in both the BW and the Q that show that the average age of the typical visitor has climbed dramatically. No one seems certain as to why this is but the potential loss of interest of the younger generation in hunting, camping, canoeing, etc. is well documented. The average age of people on this board is pretty reflective of the people I see in the Q.
I do not blame the Canadians for wanting to break even for supporting a park that is used primarily by Americans paddling across the border.

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timatkn

05/02/2012 11:32PM

A 4% increase of nothing is still nothing :) Compared to 2002 for example a 4% increase is statistically insignificant, the park is trying to fool themselves if they think that is a trend after YEARS of 20% or greater decline. Don't get me wrong it is better than their previous trends. I am glad to hear this actually, but I think the Q use is still down 50-60% when compared to 2002 for example. That would compare to my observations when I go in the busiest month--AUgust. THe Park is practically empty now.

Prior to them going on the 110% fee increase in a short span of 10 years and poor exchange rate, Quetico made money and was quite financially successful for a park. They priced themselves out IMHO for the average paddler. Now they are having money troubles. You reap what you sow.....

The higher costs really kills getting any young people involved in going to Quetico. Young people don't have a lot of disposable income and aren't going to spend what little they have on "roughing it". Quetico used to be pretty cheap and attractive to young people. Can't say that anymore.

I don't buy the DWI thing. That restriction was in place when Quetico was in it's hey day as well so not a new factor.

Love the "wussification factor"...probably makes a dent as well :)

T

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snakecharmer

05/03/2012 05:53AM

Ironically, I find that fewer people makes the Q a much more attractive destination :)

"Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing it is not fish they are after"
~ Henry David Thoreau

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boonie

05/03/2012 06:57AM

quote GraniteCliffs: "I concur with all of the astute observations above but also add a couple of thoughts:
Quetico travel actually increased the past couple of years after a decade of decline. I was told by the Park that it went up 4% in 2010 and a similar number in 2011.
Another very significant factor is Canada's restriction on border crossing in terms of criminal convictions. The DWI issue for one person often results in the entire group staying in the BW. I have worked in criminal justice for years and can not tell you how many calls we get in this regard. Canada, I believe, is looking at eliminating some of these prohibitions.
Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, is the age factor. There are several studies in both the BW and the Q that show that the average age of the typical visitor has climbed dramatically. No one seems certain as to why this is but the potential loss of interest of the younger generation in hunting, camping, canoeing, etc. is well documented. The average age of people on this board is pretty reflective of the people I see in the Q.
I do not blame the Canadians for wanting to break even for supporting a park that is used primarily by Americans paddling across the border."

One of the reasons the average age of the visitor has increased is simply that the average age of the population is at an all-time high.

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Jackfish

Moderator

05/03/2012 07:12AM

quote snakecharmer: "Ironically, I find that fewer people makes the Q a much more attractive destination :)"
What Snakecharmer said.

It's only a spot on the map... until you go there.

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timatkn

05/03/2012 07:19AM

quote Jackfish: "quote snakecharmer: "Ironically, I find that fewer people makes the Q a much more attractive destination :)"
What Snakecharmer said."
+2

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JimboChi

Guest Paddler

05/03/2012 03:28PM

Another factor that may be cause for the decline is the need for a passport. Ten years ago all you needed was a drivers license to get into Canada, now you need a passport, which costs close to $150. I can see people not wanting to buy a passport for a one time trip to Quetico.

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PINETREE

05/03/2012 04:24PM

I think what is hard,like taking a kid under lets say 12 years old that is not your own. Different papers and passport documents you need saying your not kidnapping the kid.Both sides of the border.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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snakecharmer

05/03/2012 07:34PM

quote JimboChi: "Another factor that may be cause for the decline is the need for a passport. Ten years ago all you needed was a drivers license to get into Canada, now you need a passport, which costs close to $150. I can see people not wanting to buy a passport for a one time trip to Quetico. "
That's a good point. Even the passport card is a good chunk of change...$50 I think.

"Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing it is not fish they are after"
~ Henry David Thoreau

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billconner

05/03/2012 08:27PM

Higher fees hurt but fishing regs capped it. I don't fish and love solitude so carry on. Add another $5 a night.

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PINETREE

05/03/2012 09:10PM

The downward outdoor trend across the country(USA) the last few years has been the same,be it fishing,camping,hunting etc..
A big change so far in Minnesota 2012. Reserved campsites in Minnesota State Parks for the summer is up 33% over last year right now. Lets see if it holds up.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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arctic

05/03/2012 09:45PM

The downward trend in the number of people participating in outdoor activities worries me deeply. There are plenty of politicians out there already toying with the idea of selling off our public lands in the name of "balancing the budget" or "paying off the national debt".

The same holds true in Canada, but there the focus tends to be opening up everything for logging and mining.

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PINETREE

05/03/2012 10:01PM

quote arctic: "The downward trend in the number of people participating in outdoor activities worries me deeply. There are plenty of politicians out there already toying with the idea of selling off our public lands in the name of "balancing the budget" or "paying off the national debt".

The same holds true in Canada, but there the focus tends to be opening up everything for logging and mining."
That worries me a lot.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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kanoes

05/03/2012 11:59PM

quote arctic: "There are plenty of politicians out there already toying with the idea of selling off our public lands in the name of "balancing the budget" or "paying off the national debt"."
can you prove that? if so, please provide links. i take everything i read like a grain of salt, until i see something to backup whats said.

i think bigfoot is blurry. (mitch hedberg)

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timatkn

05/04/2012 07:14AM

quote BillConner01: "Higher fees hurt but fishing regs capped it. I don't fish and love solitude so carry on. Add another $5 a night."
I would still go too, but I do think raising fees really has hurt getting youths involved. I know until I was 30 I'd never have been able to afford a trip to the Q at the current rates. If enough people don't cherish an area then who knows how long it will last. That is always the balance to try to maintain. I love the solitude, but there is a part of me that thinks something is wrong too.....

I'll keep enjoying it though :)

T

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tumblehome

05/04/2012 08:12AM

can you prove that? if so, please provide links. i take everything i read like a grain of salt, until i see something to backup whats said."
Jan, I think you already know this but. Rep. Jason Chaffetz, a Republican, of UT introduced legislation last winter to sell of over 3 million acres of Federal land to help pay off the national debt.

I can dig out all of the specific information on this if you would like.

Tom

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ZaraSp00k

05/04/2012 08:45AM

I went to California last year for 4th of July vacation, Lake Tahoe area was crowded as can be, a few miles away in the Sierra Nevada campsites were totally devoid of people, and for $26 a night, why not? You could get a room in Reno for $35

wasn't CA kind of the center of the back to earth movement in 60's & 70's? CA & Ontario are kind of the same, lots of people who want government programs as long as somebody else pays for them. I ON case, that would be US.

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arctic

05/04/2012 09:49AM

quote tumblehome: "
can you prove that? if so, please provide links. i take everything i read like a grain of salt, until i see something to backup whats said."
Jan, I think you already know this but. Rep. Jason Chaffetz, a Republican, of UT introduced legislation last winter to sell of over 3 million acres of Federal land to help pay off the national debt.

I can dig out all of the specific information on this if you would like.

Tom"
Even here in Minnesota there was legislation passed last year that FORCED the DNR to sell off some chunks of public land--even land donated by a family in the 1970s that was supposed to be preserved forever as a wildlife refuge.

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Basser

05/04/2012 10:11PM

No, No and No! You do not sell off land that was donated for a specific cause. Is there no end to the number of jacka--es we have in government these days?

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TomT

05/05/2012 06:36AM

The huge majority of people in both countries could give a rat's ass about the BW/Quetico. If we become desperate enough with the economic situation I could see the selling off of these areas. Put roads through them and open resorts and homes on the lakes. Would bring in a ton of tax dollars.

Whoa... I just scared myself with that thought.

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tumblehome

05/05/2012 07:14AM

quote TomT: "The huge majority of people in both countries could give a rat's ass about the BW/Quetico. If we become desperate enough with the economic situation I could see the selling off of these areas. Put roads through them and open resorts and homes on the lakes. Would bring in a ton of tax dollars."
TomT,

That will probably happen sooner than later. If it's not sold outright, the mining companies will get to mine it. I promise.

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bwcadan

05/06/2012 08:38PM

Prices of getting to Bottle and other west entry points went up due to higher prices for the tow service, Now a charge for the canoe of $50,00 has to be factored in as a new expense from the olden days around 2000. I still enter the Q, but less often than before by about 75%.

Also, the fly in service has gone up.

the greatest come backs are reserved for those with the greatest deficits.

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GraniteCliffs

05/06/2012 10:21PM

I think the DWI issue, as well as the existence of other criminal offenses may play a role today in the reduction in travel. This same restriction has been in place for years as noted above but had little effect until the past ten years or so. The primary reason is the vast improvement in electronic record checks that has been developed----and simply did not exist before. In other words you may have had a DWI or other offense on your record but often it was not displayed.

Many people, mostly over the road truckers and people on vacation, were denied entrance into Canada because of the offense, even though they may have entered Canada multiple times since their conviction. I used to feel sorry for these folks when they would call our court system looking for assistance because they were sitting somewhere on the border on vacation or with an eighteen wheeler with no chance of crossing the border.

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Canoodler

05/07/2012 09:01PM

I will still pay for solitude - what price can you put on that? Love the Quetico!!

I trip to swing in a hammock, drag a line, smell the sweet air and view the beauty that surrounds me.

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PINETREE

05/07/2012 09:27PM

I sat on a rock looking over A lake in Quetico this year,and like I said before, how is it in this day and age I can have a whole lake to myself. Think about it a moment,it is really something special that few if any place in the world you could have this opportunity.

We are one lucky bunch of people. You look across the lake and your look a a small section of mother earth that is still in its natural state.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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msray53

05/07/2012 09:54PM

quote PINETREE: "I sat on a rock looking over A lake in Quetico this year,and like I said before, how is it in this day and age I can have a whole lake to myself. Think about it a moment,it is really something special that few if any place in the world you could have this opportunity.

We are one lucky bunch of people. You look across the lake and your look a a small section of mother earth that is still in its natural state."
Amen to that.

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timatkn

05/08/2012 07:12AM

PINETREE, My wife and I say the same thing every year we go up there.

T

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buz

05/10/2012 12:49PM

for me personally:

#1 the hassle factor RABC, sportmans card, license, different bait/hooks, $ cost, just make it unattractive to go to the Q. I love big Crooked lake, and used to stay/fish the Q side of the lake, no more thou, too much hassle.

I may however, take a Q only trip in the future for the reasons of solitute, etc, mentioned previously. Sounds like a good place to go, I better save up, and chill out to deal with the hassle factor.

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24kGold

05/10/2012 04:49PM

My first trip in 1997 was into Quetico. Since then I've made ten trips and have always gone into Quetico. I guess it's maybe what you get used to since I've never paddled or camped in the BW.

I live in NW Arkansas, and a round trip (not including food up and back) costs a little over 600 dollars for a nine day trip. That includes all of my gas, canoe rental, camp food, permits etc. I don't know of a better way to spend 600 dollars for what you get. To experience a wilderness like that is truly incredible...something that may not last too long into the future unfortunately.

It is a bit of a hassle to get into Quetico with everything you have to do beforehand but since I've done it for so many years it doesn't bother me. I can see how it would be a deterrent to newbies and to those who are exploring this process on their own.

As long as I have my health I'll continue paddling Quetico. I think it's simply a matter of priorties and what a person really wants in a trip up north.

Terry

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." Red Green

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Ho Ho

05/10/2012 08:54PM

All I can say is - when two guys can have Kahshahpiwi Lake all to themselves in mid-September, it's a glorious thing. If other people would rather spend their money on a crummy motel room (and for that money, the motel room will be crummy in most cases), so be it. For what you get in Quetico, the price is a steal. My only regret is for young people have are really strapped for cash - I know when I was in my teens and 20s and could never have afforded a Q trip.

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timatkn

05/10/2012 09:27PM

quote Ho Ho: "All I can say is - when two guys can have Kahshahpiwi Lake all to themselves in mid-September, it's a glorious thing. If other people would rather spend their money on a crummy motel room (and for that money, the motel room will be crummy in most cases), so be it. For what you get in Quetico, the price is a steal. My only regret is for young people have are really strapped for cash - I know when I was in my teens and 20s and could never have afforded a Q trip. "
Agree

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yellowcanoe

05/11/2012 12:02AM

Q is expensive but I have been there six times.Sans reservations. Sans RABC.( since then I have moved to Woodland Caribou)

The passport thing is an issue, but not a lead weight. The nearest big city to me in any case is in Canada. (Quebec City). We go there about six times a year.

Gasoline costs might be a factor as well as the exchange rate. At home we are deluged by Canadians.

Another factor may be that Quetico might not be as attractive for short trips; in general it requires more time as I see it. People overall are just not going out for as long.

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marsonite

05/11/2012 06:27AM

Interesting thread. Another factor that would make the Q less appealing is that there seems to me to be fewer and fewer "trippers" and more and more people who just want to go the first lake and camp.

The Quetico is a glorious place if you want to do a 50 mile loop, but why hassle if you are just going one portage in?

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walleye_hunter

05/11/2012 07:41AM

This is a great thread. I think each group or individual that decides to trip somewhere besides the quetico have different reasons, this thread probably covered all of them. For me, the bait ban is the reason I don't go to the quetico anymore. Jackfish seamed surprised when I mentioned this in a thread on the fishing forum but there are lots of places I can canoe and fish besides the Quetico. I like to bobber fish for walleyes for many of the same reason I like to bow hunt. I obviously still have some interest in the Quetico or I wouldn't check out the Quetico Forum on occasion and would like to take a spring lake trout trip in the future but I can never find enough time for a Quetico trip in the spring. When I only have 3 or 4 days, I can get a lot more fishing done in the BWCA.

Overall I think there are positives and negatives to the decline in Quetico use. Hopefully, the good outweighs the bad but only time will tell. Until I do go back to the Quetico I will just have to trip vicariously through the Quetico trips of the paddlers on BWCA.com.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18

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Moosehopper

05/11/2012 11:52AM

Quetico is magical. It has been a part of my life for over 25 years. The last time I went on a 17 day solo trying to heal from a divorce. It is a place to remind us that we are animals and we need wild places to be one with and let other creatures of the earth live in peace. Yes it is sad that young people aren't getting out more. We need these natural places to protect the earth and to show them something they are part of and something that they cannot buy or own for egos sake but to appreciate and protect for the better good of all beings. If there are no more parks or wild areas we as a species we will die along with many others. I went to boundary waters once back in the early 90's and there was trash at all the campsites(bottles, cans in the fire pits, tp every where), it was crowded, and the final straw was seeing 3 drunk men coming down a portage with one of them with a Coors Light"Party ball" duct taped to his back. I haven't been to Boundary Waters since.

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PINETREE

05/11/2012 02:41PM

I wonder if Scout troops go as much to Quetico with the changes,especially the RABC pass. Camping rates would still be much cheaper for many of the youth under a certain age.
I do have a friend who is a scout leader and he says he has problem getting a group to go,because the parents have them booked so much in organized sports etc. they can't get free.Another friend for many years spent the entire summer for many years taking Boy Scouts from camp Sommer's(sp?) to Quetico only.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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Bushwacker

05/11/2012 05:12PM

quote PINETREE: "I wonder if Scout troops go as much to Quetico with the changes,especially the RABC pass. Camping rates would still be much cheaper for many of the youth under a certain age.
I do have a friend who is a scout leader and he says he has problem getting a group to go,because the parents have them booked so much in organized sports etc. they can't get free.Another friend for many years spent the entire summer for many years taking Boy Scouts from camp Sommer's(sp?) to Quetico only. "

You know what, you mention a pet peeve I've had with todays families and I think it directly relates to the decline in kids going in the Quetico and BW for that matter. I watched my brother and his 4 kids go through it too, that is, nearly every day of the entire year they have/were involved in school sports or some type of school activity. The had access to two lake homes in N Wisconsin on both sides of the family but could never get out of Ill. because of this never ending routine. I have a 5 year old now and I've vowed that is not going to happen with him/us. I think it's money driven with the school district to the detriment of the kids and families. 99.9% of these kids will never play prefessional sports. Let them have their summers back to be kids and get away into nature with their families.

"...not all those who wander are lost..." JRR Tolkien.

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GraniteCliffs

05/11/2012 07:30PM

I think I fit the typical profile of a Quetico visitor: Old (60), male, multiple prior trips to the Quetico (OK, probably about 75), lucky enough to have a fairly good paying job, close enough to drive there in 4.5 hours, no criminal record, blessed by having several groups of friends and family that will join me on trips each year and I am hopelessly addicted to the place.
I, too, love the lack of crowds in comparison to prior years. I, too, worry about what the lack of crowds could do to the long term survival of the park. It is a real conundrum.
Some post earlier in this thread used the term "magical." It is nothing less than that to me. I have a true passion for the place, year after year and trip after trip. It never gets old. In fact, I think my appreciation of the woods and waters of the North deepen with each passing year.
My first trip is in three weeks and I am like a little kid giddy with excitement. I picked up a canoe paddle in the garage the other day, cradled it in my hands and it was simply an electric feeling. How awesome is it to be my age and have a passion that gets you this charged up several times a year?
Damn, I am lucky.

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PINETREE

05/11/2012 08:14PM

The passion grows I think as we get older, because maybe we start appreciating it more instead of taking it for granted. Also I who is 62 and my partner, my brother is 69,you wonder how many trips are left together. We both are darn lucky.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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msray53

05/11/2012 08:51PM

quote GraniteCliffs: "I think I fit the typical profile of a Quetico visitor: Old (60), male, multiple prior trips to the Quetico (OK, probably about 75), lucky enough to have a fairly good paying job, close enough to drive there in 4.5 hours, no criminal record, blessed by having several groups of friends and family that will join me on trips each year and I am hopelessly addicted to the place.
I, too, love the lack of crowds in comparison to prior years. I, too, worry about what the lack of crowds could do to the long term survival of the park. It is a real conundrum.
Some post earlier in this thread used the term "magical." It is nothing less than that to me. I have a true passion for the place, year after year and trip after trip. It never gets old. In fact, I think my appreciation of the woods and waters of the North deepen with each passing year.
My first trip is in three weeks and I am like a little kid giddy with excitement. I picked up a canoe paddle in the garage the other day, cradled it in my hands and it was simply an electric feeling. How awesome is it to be my age and have a passion that gets you this charged up several times a year?
Damn, I am lucky."
You are indeed lucky in many ways. Well stated.

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shsylvester

05/12/2012 07:34AM

quote Moosehopper: "Quetico is magical. It has been a part of my life for over 25 years. The last time I went on a 17 day solo trying to heal from a divorce. It is a place to remind us that we are animals and we need wild places to be one with and let other creatures of the earth live in peace. Yes it is sad that young people aren't getting out more. We need these natural places to protect the earth and to show them something they are part of and something that they cannot buy or own for egos sake but to appreciate and protect for the better good of all beings. If there are no more parks or wild areas we as a species we will die along with many others. I went to boundary waters once back in the early 90's and there was trash at all the campsites(bottles, cans in the fire pits, tp every e), it was crowded, and the final straw was seeing 3 drunk men coming down a portage with one of them with a Coors Light"Party ball" duct taped to his back. I haven't been to Boundary Waters since."
Very well put. Starting May 21 I'm doing a 3 week solo in the bw. And then a friend is joining me for two more weeks in Q. This is part of a summer long sabbatical. (I'm a pastor). The theme of the sabbatical is" renewing relationship" and this first leg is all about being a creature again. Not a tourist, not an observer of beauty from the outside, but being on the inside of creation as a part of it because I need to recover that from living as part of a society and culture that takes us further and further from what we really are.

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PINETREE

05/12/2012 07:54AM

quote shsylvester: "quote Moosehopper: "Quetico is magical. It has been a part of my life for over 25 years. The last time I went on a 17 day solo trying to heal from a divorce. It is a place to remind us that we are animals and we need wild places to be one with and let other creatures of the earth live in peace. Yes it is sad that young people aren't getting out more. We need these natural places to protect the earth and to show them something they are part of and something that they cannot buy or own for egos sake but to appreciate and protect for the better good of all beings. If there are no more parks or wild areas we as a species we will die along with many others. I went to boundary waters once back in the early 90's and there was trash at all the campsites(bottles, cans in the fire pits, tp every e), it was crowded, and the final straw was seeing 3 drunk men coming down a portage with one of them with a Coors Light"Party ball" duct taped to his back. I haven't been to Boundary Waters since. "
Very well put. Starting May 21 I'm doing a 3 week solo in the bw. And then a friend is joining me for two more weeks in Q. This is part of a summer long sabbatical. (I'm a pastor). The theme of the sabbatical is" renewing relationship" and this first leg is all about being a creature again. Not a tourist, not an observer of beauty from the outside, but being on the inside of creation as a part of it because I need to recover that from living as part of a society and culture that takes us further and further from what we really are. "

I like that.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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Moosehopper

05/12/2012 08:19AM

I read a lot of Sig Olson and Paul Gruchow's "Boundary Waters", John Muir,etc. These people captivated others by words. But ultimately the "Magic" is in the experience. When you go to a place that embraces you and brings you in, you feel like you are home, you feel connected your soul is in harmony with all that surrounds you. You feel like you are back in your mothers arms (mother earth).

Young people today are just products of a materialistic and unconscious society. I agree with many of these posts that the children aren't raised to find quiet in their lives. They are brought up in a corporate world to be distracted, impatient,and reliant upon "Technology"/convenience. Their lives are based on being constantly stimulated, immediacy and instantaneous gratification.

I am a school teacher and am trying to take what I have learned and help others realize the importance of wild places and truly experiencing these places. We, as a society, must get back to our roots so we can be grounded again, preferably by a reflective north country lake with loons, beavers slapping their tails, moose in the shallows, eagles above, white pines whispering in the wind, all of these species know their place, we need to learn ours.

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AdamXChicago

05/13/2012 01:03PM

What Ho Ho said!

Makes my mind drift away... I just look back and think about sitting in a canoe in the middle of Russell Lake (with no other humans in sight), dipping a cup into the water and drinking my fill and thinking - "how many places on earth, in this day and age, could I do this?" (let's not get into the water filtering/purification debate here).

Thankfully, the cost of these trips is bearable for me (even with the exchange rate parity). But anyone in the US doing a cost analysis between BW and Q will instantly see it's a no-brainer (financially-speaking). I choose the Q because it's what I love. And, like love, it's not always rational...

Anyway, it's fished-out ;-)

AdamX

BTW: In my opinion, it's the "wussification of America" that will become the long-term problem

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timatkn

05/13/2012 03:00PM

quote Moosehopper: "Young people today are just products of a materialistic and unconscious society. I agree with many of these posts that the children aren't raised to find quiet in their lives. They are brought up in a corporate world to be distracted, impatient,and reliant upon "Technology"/convenience. Their lives are based on being constantly stimulated, immediacy and instantaneous gratification. "
I pretty much agree with you and maybe this isn't what you were saying but I can't blame corporations or technology if my kids aren't connected to the the outdoors. There will be only one person to blame and that will be me.....

I think too many parents are given cop outs for their kids today. "My kid is fat because of McDonalds ads", " my kid won't do homework becuase of video games" etc.... I am responsible for my kids and how they turn out....period. It begins and ends with the Parents!

T

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Moosehopper

05/14/2012 07:38AM

This may seem like a ramble but bare with me.

I agree that parents should be a strong influence in their children's lives. Kids need that more than ever because there are so many outside influences and distractions for living a balanced life. Although, Parents need to wake up too and see the seductive influences of the corporate world dictating conveniences for our modern lives. And we should ask ourselves how many plastic snow men do we need for decorating our lawns during Christmas, or do I really need another toy for my garage, how about botox, and many other weird stuff that we buy to succumb to cultural standards. We are all in this canoe of life rowing together and it has been properly said, "that it takes a tribe to raise a child", but are corporations concerned about our children or us or our tribe.

In our schools, where is the gym time, art time, etc. Kids are so out of touch with their bodies, and their culture is not allowing them time be physically active in the gym or in the woods. And during lunch they eat processed foods void of nutrition that is so conveniently located outside the hall in the vending machines and served in the lunch line. We are an overweight society that is so reliant upon food (as an emotional crutch),cars (that beef up our egos), mortgages (everybody wants a castle), phones (so we can fill in the voids) and many things that we have a hard time being conscious of.

The corporate world has a strangle hold on many people that don't have the mental fortitude to step back and look at their actions and be aware of the little mental whispers of Company jingles and repetitive commercial plugs on buildings, park benches, movies, TV etc.. We are all a "a product of society" and we are all being enculturated into thinking that if you have a headache take "Bayer", Have a coke and a smile, Apple iphone keeps you connected, Ram tough............

Another thing to consider is how a society is guided, if not just down right brain washed. Kids are now involved with so much stimulation and technology that they will need to keep up with in order to get a job, or have the means to take care of themselves.
This constant day in and day out of commercial products being shoved down our throats as parents and children, where does it end.

Many people going into the "Woods" see it as a scary and ominous place, danger lurking everywhere, so we build big old campers and drive through the woods with the safety of our monster polluting machines that can keep us safe, dry, and warm. We completely miss the connection and instead of being part of nature we "observe" it from afar like it was a zoo.

It is important for all of us to get back to mother nature and simplify our lives. I think many of the economic struggles for America and the world have hopefully begun to wake us up from a living dream. I know as a species we can do better to appreciate all the life around us and get back in touch with all living things, including the lakes in the North Country, the sky's of Montana, the earth of the Himalaya's, the seas of the Pacific and get back in touch with being with our children in the woods.

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shsylvester

05/14/2012 07:42AM

Waxing a bit philosophical, perhaps, but I think we're reaping what we've been sewing. We've tried so hard for so long to put distance between ourselves and (the rest of) creation that purely synthetic realities like computer games and the Mall of America seem natural. Our kids are simply living the extrapolation of our dreams. And I get the idea that "it begins and ends with parents", but that's naive.

Like it or not culture and society have influence. A lot. Ours is a sick acquisitive society that sees the rest of creation as a combination pantry and outhouse. We no longer revere or even respect creation. It's no longer our home, so we choose to spend time in places that are more comfortable and entertaining. I think this fits in with all the "external" reasons Q visits are down.

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ZaraSp00k

05/14/2012 08:34AM

quote Moosehopper: "I am a school teacher and am trying to take what I have learned and help others realize the importance of wild places and truly experiencing these places."
The person who got me interested in tripping was my 6th grade teacher. He showed pictures of his summer trip along the border on Crooked Lake. My friend and I were mesmerized by it and years later after graduation we finally made the trip after building our way up to it with trips on the St. Croix.

Young minds are impressionable.

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Moosehopper

05/14/2012 08:59AM

quote shsylvester: "Waxing a bit philosophical, perhaps, but I think we're reaping what we've been sewing. We've tried so hard for so long to put distance between ourselves and (the rest of) creation that purely synthetic realities like computer games and the Mall of America seem natural. Our kids are simply living the extrapolation of our dreams. And I get the idea that "it begins and ends with parents", but that's naive.

Like it or not culture and society have influence. A lot. Ours is a sick acquisitive society that sees the rest of creation as a combination pantry and outhouse. We no longer revere or even respect creation. It's no longer our home, so we choose to spend time in places that are more comfortable and entertaining. I think this fits in with all the "external" reasons Q visits are down. "
Excellent Shsylvester, I completely agree. Nature will balance herself out. Living beyond our needs, living with disregard, greed unconsciousness, need we say more. Native indigenous people living in egalitarian, reciprocating social groups only gathered what they needed and owned nothing. And could you imagine a modern man traveling back into a time where you needed to be one with your surrounding, they would suddenly be in the mouth of another animal. That's why we eradicate "predators" (all animals, people too) so we have no immediate threat.

We could relax in the world right. We have lost so much knowledge from indigenous people and we have been lost for a long time. Our opposable thumbs are only good for pushing the send button. Anthropocentric/Ethnopocentric upright primates that lost our way from our mother. I like the comment on Pantry and Outhouse. Metaphors seem to poetically/eloquently state the obvious or for most the not so obvious.

Quetico has predators how awesome. Quetico is a place with bugs, yippy!!! Quetico has origin and perspective. Quetico is a place for those of us that are still clinging to hope and clinging to earth. Now with that being said, how do we create a positive outlook to helping our species appreciate our wild places.

The price of going to Quetico is priceless!!!!!!!!!!

The price of preserving Quetico is priceless!!!!!!!!!!

The price of our natural world is priceless!!!!!!!!!!

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missmolly

05/14/2012 09:03AM

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flaxman

05/15/2012 10:50AM

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timatkn

05/15/2012 11:58AM

quote flaxman: "Slightly off topic, but I was just surfing the new online reservation site (still plan to call per tradition, and desire to keep people employed), and noticed that ALL Agnes permits are taken from 8/22-9/3. I always just assume that I can just call the day of a trip and count on one of those permits being available. "
Agnes permits are probalby one of the most popular, many outfitters route through there, but that still surprises me.

T

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jcavenagh

05/15/2012 02:13PM

I can go to WCPP or Wabakimi for half the price.
There are even fewer folks going into those parks than Quetico.
Since solitude is my most desired feature, the other parks are likely to draw me for the next few trips.

My first seven wilderness canoe trips were all in or in-out of Quetico.
I did Wabakimi last year.
I am doing WCPP this year.

I am not much of a fisherman, but the bait and hook restrictions are also a negative for me when deciding where to canoe. I gladly pay the Ontario Outdoorsman Card fee to support the management of the parks and fisheries. I don't expect to get something for nothing, but Quetico is a lesser value now than the other parks.

I only get one canoe trip a year, so I have to make it count as much as possible.

LNT - The road to success is always under construction. http://hikingillinois.blogspot.com/

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tumblehome

05/15/2012 08:19PM

quote jcavenagh: "
I am not much of a fisherman, but the bait and hook restrictions are also a negative for me when deciding where to canoe. "

I would like to make one comment on the no barbed hook rule.

I fished the Q last year with my barbless Rapalas. I was more than surprised that I didn't lose any fish I hooked. I was even more surprised how much less stress it caused me and the fish when I removed the Rapala from the fishes mouth. My God, barbed hooks are murder.

I really think that barbed hooks are a creation of marketing from the industry and I now think they cause more problems than they solve. Just sayin'.

If you haven't tried barbless hooks, you really should.

Tom

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timatkn

05/15/2012 08:44PM

quote tumblehome: "quote jcavenagh: "
I am not much of a fisherman, but the bait and hook restrictions are also a negative for me when deciding where to canoe. "

I would like to make one comment on the no barbed hook rule.

I fished the Q last year with my barbless Rapalas. I was more than surprised that I didn't lose any fish I hooked. I was even more surprised how much less stress it caused me and the fish when I removed the Rapala from the fishes mouth. My God, barbed hooks are murder.

I really think that barbed hooks are a creation of marketing from the industry and I now think they cause more problems than they solve. Just sayin'.

If you haven't tried barbless hooks, you really should.

Tom"
While I don't deny your personal experience, scientific research on delayed hooking mortality shows barbless hooks aren't better for the fish. Without the barbs you get deeper hooksets in some cases causing more damage than a barbed hook. Barbed hooks cause more superficial damage, while the barbless causes deeper damage to the arteries inside the mouth--which is more harmful. Some studies show barbed hooks are better and some show barbless are better. Most studies show there is no difference in mortality. I like barbless too, but more because they don't get stuck in my coat or hand and you get better hooksets with a lot of line out or a longer cast.

When the Park banned barbed hooks they admitted the research didn't back that decision and also admitted it was more to limit human injuries than to protect fish.

T

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salukiguy

05/16/2012 12:23PM

Here is my problem money wise. If I take a Quetico trip with the guys I only am allowed to spend so much money by the wife and its not enough for Quetico. If I decide to take the family it will cost 4x the amount of money I can't have for option one.

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Basser

05/27/2012 10:19PM

I like, and agree, with all the quotes regarding today's youth, Q visits down etc.
We can only hope, and try to do what we can to foster, enough of a population of wilderness supporters to sustain into the future the wonderful wilderness areas we have today.

Basser

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FOG51

05/30/2012 06:08AM

I know this has nothing to do with the Q post but I saw in your response that you have been to Woodland Park. My son and I are considering going there in late August and we could use any information you could give me. We are fishermen but don't want to have to kill yourself in getting to a secret lake just into a good fishing lake. We have quite a bit of canoeing experience both in the BWCA and up in the area north of Uplsa Ontario. Thanks in advance FRED

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Jackfish

Moderator

05/30/2012 06:55AM

Fred, post your information request on the Listening Point General Discussion page and it's likely that more people will see it. There is also a private forum for Woodland Caribou Provincial Park that you will get invited to as soon as that forum manager sees your question. Good luck in your trip planning!

It's only a spot on the map... until you go there.

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MNIIHON

06/01/2012 06:01PM

I really wish at least they would follow the BW's approach and drop the fees in the off season(OCT1-APR30). Do they really expect someone to drop $1000 into a slot on an abandoned ranger station for the winter. Whats the penalty for just winging it and avoiding the fees in the off season. Say one has obtained an RABC and even a fishing license, what is the harm in camping for free in the Q in November. What am I taking from the park at that point? There arent even rangers "out and about".

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Mac from Iowa

Guest Paddler

06/01/2012 08:19PM

Expense is definitely a concern.

My daughter and I will go in through Lac La Croix this year. We will have one motel on the way up $60..buy groceries - a conservative $100... camping fees at $34/night x 8 days is $272...the tow through Zups is $200 each + $50/canoe = $450.... and gas for a 800 mile trip from Iowa is approx. $150. Add that all up and throw a couple meals on the road in and you have an $1100 trip.

I have all my owns equipment so we do save considerably there. Is it worth it? YES....but is it also a little pricey? Yes.

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arctic

06/01/2012 10:10PM

quote MNIIHON: "I really wish at least they would follow the BW's approach and drop the fees in the off season(OCT1-APR30). Do they really expect someone to drop $1000 into a slot on an abandoned ranger station for the winter. Whats the penalty for just winging it and avoiding the fees in the off season. Say one has obtained an RABC and even a fishing license, what is the harm in camping for free in the Q in November. What am I taking from the park at that point? There arent even rangers "out and about"."
I sure wouldn't risk it. With drones flying over the border, no way.
Actually, a November paddle would be iffy during most years, as many of the smaller bodies of water would be icing up. You'd find the same amount of solitude in the BWCA at that time of year. An October trip would be way cool, though.

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timatkn

06/02/2012 12:49PM

quote MNIIHON: "I really wish at least they would follow the BW's approach and drop the fees in the off season(OCT1-APR30). Do they really expect someone to drop $1000 into a slot on an abandoned ranger station for the winter. Whats the penalty for just winging it and avoiding the fees in the off season. Say one has obtained an RABC and even a fishing license, what is the harm in camping for free in the Q in November. What am I taking from the park at that point? There arent even rangers "out and about"."
I think...emphasis on the thinks...but I think if you have everything but Park fees paid it would be $300/person fine. That's from a few years ago when someone got fined for walking up warrior hill without paying entrance fees. They didn't get checked by customs but were told it would possibly in the thousands for customs violation.

You must be going with a lot of people and for for many days if your Quetico camp fees are up to a thousand dollars though. That sounds like a kinda high estimate.

T

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AdamXChicago

06/02/2012 04:12PM

quote timatkn: "quote MNIIHON: "I really wish at least they would follow the BW's approach and drop the fees in the off season(OCT1-APR30). Do they really expect someone to drop $1000 into a slot on an abandoned ranger station for the winter. Whats the penalty for just winging it and avoiding the fees in the off season. Say one has obtained an RABC and even a fishing license, what is the harm in camping for free in the Q in November. What am I taking from the park at that point? There arent even rangers "out and about"."
I think...emphasis on the thinks...but I think if you have everything but Park fees paid it would be $300/person fine. That's from a few years ago when someone got fined for walking up warrior hill without paying entrance fees. They didn't get checked by customs but were told it would possibly in the thousands for customs violation.

You must be going with a lot of people and for for many days if your Quetico camp fees are up to a thousand dollars though. That sounds like a kinda high estimate.

T"
Looks like the tow is the killer - cut out that portion and the numbers look more in line IMHO...

AdamX

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timatkn

06/02/2012 06:35PM

quote AdamXChicago: "quote timatkn: "quote MNIIHON: "I really wish at least they would follow the BW's approach and drop the fees in the off season(OCT1-APR30). Do they really expect someone to drop $1000 into a slot on an abandoned ranger station for the winter. Whats the penalty for just winging it and avoiding the fees in the off season. Say one has obtained an RABC and even a fishing license, what is the harm in camping for free in the Q in November. What am I taking from the park at that point? There arent even rangers "out and about"."
I think...emphasis on the thinks...but I think if you have everything but Park fees paid it would be $300/person fine. That's from a few years ago when someone got fined for walking up warrior hill without paying entrance fees. They didn't get checked by customs but were told it would possibly in the thousands for customs violation.

You must be going with a lot of people and for for many days if your Quetico camp fees are up to a thousand dollars though. That sounds like a kinda high estimate.

T"
Looks like the tow is the killer - cut out that portion and the numbers look more in line IMHO...

AdamX"
I agree, but the previous poster talked about putting a $1,000 into the pay slot at a station. That doesn't have anything to do with the tow costs.

T

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boonie

06/02/2012 06:57PM

If I remember right, MNIIHON, and a couple of guys did a 30-day (?) trip last Oct ...?

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timatkn

06/02/2012 09:15PM

quote boonie: "If I remember right, MNIIHON, and a couple of guys did a 30-day (?) trip last Oct ...? "

If that's true, then that makes more sense.

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Ho Ho

06/02/2012 09:33PM

I just got back from a 6-day "two solos" trip with Banksiana in Quetico. We started at Prairie Portage, went up to Sarah where we spent two nights (a lot of wind that second day), traveled to Ted the next day via McIntyre and the southern route to Earl then Ted, stayed two nights there with a side trip to Milt (more bad weather that 4th day), took the "Little Ted" and bushwhack route to Robinson, then out via Lower Basswood Falls and the Horse River. From midday the first day on North Bay until midday the last day at LBF, we saw no other people - with one exception. On our second night on Ted, at about 8:30, a three- person canoe came in from the direction of Milt making a beeline for the message jar site. Good thing for them that we were camped at Banks's super-secret site elsewhere on Ted or they would have been out of luck just as it got dark. I don't think they knew anyone else was on the lake until well after dark, I wonder if they got freaked out when they saw our headlamps at a spot where "there is no campsite."

But I digress. My on-topic point is that it is truly remarkable and glorious that we can go night after night and have entire lakes and chains of lakes all to ourselves in one of the most beautiful places in the world (IMHO the most beautiful place in the world). Maybe I need to leave a tobacco gift by a pictograph or something like that to make sure it continues. Anyway, I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth, it's just too good to be true.

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TomT

06/02/2012 09:53PM

Hey Ho Ho, lookin' forward to a trip report. Cool that you guys did that bushwhack!

Personally I like the situation the way it is right now. There's a big difference between the parks not only in the amount of users but the topography of the land and lakes as well.

The BW sees so much use, the sites and portages are just used to death. Quetico still has a wilderness feel to it especially off the main routes. I'll jump through the extra hoops and pay the higher fees to experience this. And if I ever decide to go on a trip spur of the moment there's always the cheaper BW to fall back on. But when I plan out a trip in advance it'll be the Q till I'm too old and feeble to do it anymore.

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MNIIHON

06/03/2012 07:58AM

quote boonie: "If I remember right, MNIIHON, and a couple of guys did a 30-day (?) trip last Oct ...? "
Thats right, 28 days to be exact. 1000 dollars is not an exaggeration actually. Its still the one of the best(and cheapest) ways to spend a month.

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boonie

06/03/2012 08:08AM

quote MNIIHON: "quote boonie: "If I remember right, MNIIHON, and a couple of guys did a 30-day (?) trip last Oct ...? "
Thats right, 28 days to be exact. 1000 dollars is not an exaggeration actually. Its still the one of the best(and cheapest) ways to spend a month. "
Yeah, I thought you were the one...and that it wasn't just hyperbole. I'll have to go back and reread that trip report. Nice pictures, too, if I remember. Anybody that missed that TR the first time should go read it.

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PINETREE

06/03/2012 08:21PM

quote Ho Ho: "I just got back from a 6-day "two solos" trip with Banksiana in Quetico. We started at Prairie Portage, went up to Sarah where we spent two nights (a lot of wind that second day), traveled to Ted the next day via McIntyre and the southern route to Earl then Ted, stayed two nights there with a side trip to Milt (more bad weather that 4th day), took the "Little Ted" and bushwhack route to Robinson, then out via Lower Basswood Falls and the Horse River. From midday the first day on North Bay until midday the last day at LBF, we saw no other people - with one exception. On our second night on Ted, at about 8:30, a three-person canoe came in from the direction of Milt making a beeline for the message jar site. Good thing for them that we were camped at Banks's super-secret site elsewhere on Ted or they would have been out of luck just as it got dark. I don't think they knew anyone else was on the lake until well after dark, I wonder if they got freaked out when they saw our headlamps at a spot where "there is no campsite."

But I digress. My on-topic point is that it is truly remarkable and glorious that we can go night after night and have entire lakes and chains of lakes all to ourselves in one of the most beautiful places in the world (IMHO the most beautiful place in the world). Maybe I need to leave a tobacco gift by a pictograph or something like that to make sure it continues. Anyway, I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth, it's just too good to be true."
I agree with HoHo 100%. Many a time up there in Quetico (which is in a foreign country) that lets me go anywhere I want for $21.50 a night is a bargain. Yes prices did rise fast. We also got spoiled for a long time when their dollar was only worth 65 cents compared to us, but like the USA, the Ontario and Canada government took away much of their general revenue.

I sit by the camp fire many times and pinch myself when I have so much wild area, excellent fishing to myself (side note - I know ten years ago in some places in Europe it cost $1000.00 for a guided quality carp fishing trip), and I wonder will it last? I hope so, we are running out of true wild areas.

Yes I have seen Quetico Rangers 2 out of the last 3 seasons when it was self registration.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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ZaraSp00k

06/04/2012 01:28PM

wild is relative, once you have been elsewhere, Quetico does not seem so wild

our own country has plenty of places you can paddle with no fees, but it's your money to spend as you wish

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PINETREE

06/04/2012 01:36PM

quote ZaraSp00k: "wild is relative, once you have been elsewhere, Quetico does not seem so wild

our own country has plenty of places you can paddle with no fees, but it's your money to spend as you wish"
Yes but compared to anything in the U.S. lower 48,Quetico with its variety of lakes etc.we have nothing like it. Even if we do its nice to have more than One last best place(There are getting less of those all the time).

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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arctic

06/04/2012 02:00PM

quote ZaraSp00k: "wild is relative, once you have been elsewhere, Quetico does not seem so wild

our own country has plenty of places you can paddle with no fees, but it's your money to spend as you wish"

I've had the opportunity to paddle many parts of the North. Although there are certainly far wilder places than Quetico, there is no canoe country in the Lower 48 as wild, "pristine", or lightly traveled.

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bwcadan

06/04/2012 08:03PM

I can still get solitude in the BW. You have to be willing to paddle a little further with the possibility of crowds to start, but aim for the end of bays and you may see one come looking and leaving because you are there. For me, I do not count that intrusion as anything but a blimp.

Add the little fishing I do and the cost vs reward ratio changes. Add the longer time to get into the Q and the BW is a good option every year or so.

the greatest come backs are reserved for those with the greatest deficits.

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timatkn

06/04/2012 08:41PM

You can get secluded in the BWCA buy not like the Q. A lake like Wickstead, Darky, William, Ted, Burt, Suzanette, Sarah to name a few would be full Of people if in the BWCA. While I have had the pleasure of being the only people on those lakes while in the Q.

The BWCW equivalent would be like having Knife lake all to yourself in the peak of summer travel. Just never gonna happen in the BWCA.

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TomT

06/05/2012 06:20AM

I took a 10 day trip in Q last Sept. 1st through 10th and did a loop north of PP with only 2 layover days. I saw one canoe on my first day and one other canoe on my 6th. That was it until coming out from Wind Lake onto Moose. This sort of thing is impossible in the BW at that time of the year.

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Wallidave

06/05/2012 07:46AM

Although it's easy for me to afford our 2 person trip I'm always looking for ways to cut costs.(the Bohemian in me) Every year we think about cutting out the towboat but never do. Last year we purchased our own canoe, so we'll save close to $400 on that and it's already paid for itself for how much we've used it at home. This will leave more $$ to spend on souvenirs from our favorite outfitter and at the ranger station...LOL! We also cram everthing into a compact car to save on gas. With only two people going from our family the costs are minimal...now a bigger family of 4-6 would be more of a challenge. I also start putting a little money on the side after our trip for our next trip, because you never know what your financial situation will be like next year, it eases the pain of coming up with a "G ball" a few weeks before leaving.

Take your kids...My 14yo son has been coming with me to Quetico since 2007. We leave in less then a week for our 6th straight two week trip together. Yeah, he's big into video games too but he also looks forward to our Quetico trip as much as I do and leaves all electronics at home. His favorite souvenir every year is his BWCA calendar for the following year that we pick up at the outfitter. At this point I can't imagine going without him. I know if I did I would be extremely lonely however it would be a good lonely if that makes sense. Every activity or place I would go on a trip by myself would bring back good memories of our trips together C:

Janice the Ranger at Cache Bay always tells him to bring his friends next time as we talk about the drop in young people coming to Quetico these days. Sadly he's tells me none of his friends are interested.

The biggest challenge to his continued interest I feel is yet to come...girls :) I'd like to think when he finds that right person we will gain another Quetico fan. It's a special place to make great memories with people you love.

Now if we can just convince mom to come along...she's been showing signs of interest lately C:

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PINETREE

06/05/2012 08:46AM

People talk about expenses,well if you did not go you probably would spend a good sum of money running around town,food etc..
Sometimes I think I saved money by going to Quetico.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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ZaraSp00k

06/05/2012 10:40AM

quote timatkn: "You can get secluded in the BWCA buy not like the Q. A lake like Wickstead, Darky, William, Ted, Burt, Suzanette, Sarah to name a few would be full Of people if in the BWCA. While I have had the pleasure of being the only people on those lakes while in the Q.

The BWCW equivalent would be like having Knife lake all to yourself in the peak of summer travel. Just never gonna happen in the BWCA."

I'm amazed, I have been on Knife when there has been nobody else there, to each their own I guess, but having a lake to oneself is not all that it is cracked up to be IMO. Other than having your choice of campsite, it's not a big deal to me. Well, unless they are the type that stays up all night yelling.

seclusion? go anywhere in MN that ISN'T the BW and you will likely have it all to yourself. Rarely do I encounter others, they are all in BW or on one of the several thousand lakes with several thousand others.

But I am glad there are people who enjoy pay ~$20 a night to camp in Quetico, somebody has to pay the bills. But I think it explains why most of US going there are guys without their wife/SO, $40 a night is awfully steep. If you pay that, good for you. I expect at least a bed and shower for that.

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timatkn

06/05/2012 08:50PM

Zara you've been on Knife the first week of August and had the entire lake to yourself? I gotta trip with you if you have that kind of luck. That never happens to us in the peak season.

T

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PINETREE

06/05/2012 09:19PM

Must of got in between groups entering. Sometimes some of that area it is hard to find a campsite.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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Woodtick

06/05/2012 09:49PM

quote Bushwacker: "quote PINETREE: "I wonder if Scout troops go as much to Quetico with the changes,especially the RABC pass. Camping rates would still be much cheaper for many of the youth under a certain age.
I do have a friend who is a scout leader and he says he has problem getting a group to go,because the parents have them booked so much in organized sports etc. they can't get free.Another friend for many years spent the entire summer for many years taking Boy Scouts from camp Sommer's(sp?) to Quetico only. "

You know what, you mention a pet peeve I've had with todays families and I think it directly relates to the decline in kids going in the Quetico and BW for that matter. I watched my brother and his 4 kids go through it too, that is, nearly every day of the entire year they have/were involved in school sports or some type of school activity. The had access to two lake homes in N Wisconsin on both sides of the family but could never get out of Ill. because of this never ending routine. I have a 5 year old now and I've vowed that is not going to happen with him/us. I think it's money driven with the school district to the detriment of the kids and families. 99.9% of these kids will never play prefessional sports. Let them have their summers back to be kids and get away into nature with their families. "
+1

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snakecharmer

06/06/2012 05:43AM

PMAs are the BW's answer to the Q.

"Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing it is not fish they are after"
~ Henry David Thoreau

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Ho Ho

06/06/2012 11:42AM

quote snakecharmer: "PMAs are the BW's answer to the Q."

I've heard that said before, but I don't think it's accurate. PMAs are small areas, with generally small lakes, no maintained portages, and no maintained campsites. And you need to reserve the nights you want to stay in one.

Quetico is a big area, with big and spectacular as well as small and intimate lakes, portages that are generally rugged but still maintained, and traditional campsites even though you can camp anywhere. And you need no specific reservation other than your entry permit.

I think PMAs are a great part of the BWCA, but they are not like Quetico. They are in many ways more challenging, but they also often lack the grandeur.

BTW, when I say how great I think Quetico is, I'm not knocking the BW. I love the Boundary Waters! I just love Quetico even more.

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PINETREE

06/06/2012 01:23PM

Quetico is like a 1000 PMA in one spot.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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TuckRiverMan

06/06/2012 04:31PM

I've noticed Quetico numbers way down. I used to think about putting in for a permit around Christmas time. This past week was a prime fishing week and there were unused permits at Prairie every day. I think it's a number of factors. The economy and the increased camping fees in Quetico have a little to do with it but I think some of you hit the nail on the head. People have become soft and are getting softer. Our children and most adults I know are glued to their electronic handheld devices and can't handle being separated from them. I guess that means they'll be more isolated places and fish for me. Now if I can just find a non-wimp to go with me.

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PINETREE

06/06/2012 06:49PM

Soft is right,also a example I was at the YMCA today,and here is this boy with his grandpa going to go swimming in the pool. The grandpa got mad because he could not get the kid to put a video game away,the grandpa said your addicted and the kid said he was not,his grandpa finally got him to put it down.
I think to many parents are letting kids spend to much time on these things just to keep them occupied. Well driving thru the neighborhoods I hardly ever see a kid playing outdoors. They are addicted

Sorry a little off subject but it is related.

I would like to see the 2011 visitation numbers of the park,it does seem looking at previous numbers the last couple of years it was stabilizing.

Minnesota park reservations this year were up 30% over last year. Hope it holds.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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missmolly

06/07/2012 07:24AM

I take a kid to Crown Land in Canada most years. I've never had one decline the offer. How could you decline fishing, paddling, camping, and ADVENTURE?!?

@ Zara

Having the lake to myself is everything to me. If someone else arrives, I go, unless they're just passing through.

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ZaraSp00k

06/07/2012 08:03AM

quote timatkn: "Zara you've been on Knife the first week of August and had the entire lake to yourself? I gotta trip with you if you have that kind of luck. That never happens to us in the peak season.

T"

I went up there the August after the burn and I had the entire route, Ottertrack back to Eddy to myself. Absolutely nobody on Knife. Two years later I paddled Sag to Prairie Portage, absolutely nobody on Knife.

there may have been, it is big enough you may not notice them

you don't pay top dollar to go to Quetico because it is the most wild or pristine place, you pay top dollar because that is what the traffic will bear, or at least what they thought it would bear

Ontario debt is 20 billion, that is epic California-New jersey-Illinois type debt, in fact with 1/3 the people of CA, it has half the debt, so it is worse than CA

I guess I remember the days it was 10 bucks and the Canadian dollar was 80% of US, it was a bargain then, now, I will rarely go, too many other interesting places

on the plus side, the steep price sends people elsewhere (Woodland, Wabakimi) or out of Ontario entirely

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PINETREE

06/07/2012 08:28AM

I remember it was about $6.50 a night and the exchange rate was 65%.

Sig: All of us our Dreamers. Dreams are what started everything. We our asking ourselves a great question? all of us interested in wilderness preservation are asking...What kind of world do we want.?

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snakecharmer

06/07/2012 12:29PM

quote Ho Ho: "quote snakecharmer: "PMAs are the BW's answer to the Q."

I've heard that said before, but I don't think it's accurate. PMAs are small areas, with generally small lakes, no maintained portages, and no maintained campsites. And you need to reserve the nights you want to stay in one.

Quetico is a big area, with big and spectacular as well as small and intimate lakes, portages that are generally rugged but still maintained, and traditional campsites even though you can camp anywhere. And you need no specific reservation other than your entry permit.

I think PMAs are a great part of the BWCA, but they are not like Quetico. They are in many ways more challenging, but they also often lack the grandeur.

BTW, when I say how great I think Quetico is, I'm not knocking the BW. I love the Boundary Waters! I just love Quetico even more.

"
I didn't say PMAs were like the Q. What I said was PMAs are the BW's answer to the Q. What are you, a lawyer or something? :)

"Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing it is not fish they are after"
~ Henry David Thoreau

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Ho Ho

06/07/2012 01:07PM

Don't be surprised when you get the subpoena for the deposition, Mr. Snakecharmer. :-)

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