quote Gmorgan: "I am sure the decision to plan the exit saved us a ton of money"


The other reports I've read or heard of ranger rescues from WCPP and the Q suggest there were no costs or charges for the rescue, but both were solos and they did have to stash their gear and arrange for retrieval later which did cost. I sensed they might seek to recover costs for false alarms or nuisance use.

BTW you need to name your links - or as you should be able to see they only exist when someone "replies with quote".

I tried to label links in reply with quote editor box but failed. Sorry.

So here is video

and previous thread

Sure wish I learned html or whatever that is in high school.

I used to have a SPOT, but for the amount of backpacking I do (once or twice a year) I just couldn't excuse the cost (it is a subscription service and then there's the insurance you can pay on top of that to cover the rescue cost). For $150 a year (auto-renewed) I couldn't convince myself to keep it. I know I'll look into them again, but I hope there are better options when I do. I've heard a lot of complaints regarding their customer service, but I didn't really run into trouble.

Every rescue story I've read about SPOT is dead-on though, and never negative ("I had to keep calm, but within hours there was a helicopter/plane at my exact position"). I also liked the idea of using it as a tracking mechanism, as noted above, so my wife could see I was still moving along at a "I'm not hurt" pace. However, they only keep your data for 14 days.

I purchased a SPOT two years ago and the check-in and/or tracking feature has been required in some form for the MR340 and Everglades Challenge races I have been part of. Again, the check-in feature is good for the wife's nerves when I'm in the backcountry with my daughter.

I haven't kept up on the new features of the SPOT 3 or the Spot Connect...but when a version of the device can also receive short text messages enabling at least rudimentary two-way service, then I'll probably go to that. Emergencies can happen on both ends, the persons at home or the persons on excursions.

Mine has worked flawlessly and no problems with the service at all. Hate to pay for it though!

quote billconner: "I tried to label links in reply with quote editor box but failed. Sorry.

Thank you. That was the first time I tried to post a link.

I think the $150 includes the tracking feature, which I don't use. Just $100/year for messaging and emergency messaging. I end up driving in some remote areas for work so keep it in my glove box incase of a problem when out of cell service. Makes me "think" it's justified for a trip or two per year in canoe country. (With good fortune, I hope to actually be able to use it more in the backcountry in the future.)

quote billconner: "(With good fortune, I hope to actually be able to use it more in the backcountry in the future.)"

Don't we all Bill, don't we all?

More off topic but relevant. Some info on Delorme InReach
, another satellite communicator on the market.

butthead

As OP, I don't find discussion of devices at all off-topic butthead. I would buy the Delorme unit in a heartbeat if I knew it was compatible with the events that require a SPOT...specifically the Watertribe races (I did the EC in 2013) and the Yukon 1000 I'd like to do someday. In fact, I just sent an email to the SPOT people suggesting they develop a product that will receive short text messages...but didn't know or mention that the competition already has that feature! I bet they are already working on it.

quote joewildlife: "As OP, I don't find discussion of devices at all off-topic butthead. I would buy the Delorme unit in a heartbeat if I knew it was compatible with the events that require a SPOT...specifically the Watertribe races (I did the EC in 2013) and the Yukon 1000 I'd like to do someday. In fact, I just sent an email to the SPOT people suggesting they develop a product that will receive short text messages...but didn't know or mention that the competition already has that feature! I bet they are already working on it."

Spot responded fast to your suggestion - they introduced their communicator last year or maybe longer ago.

SPOT Connect

Personally, I want to stay further away from civilization when I'm out but understand each person has their own priorities.

Naw, the Connect is not capable of receiving messages.

The Delorme is way ahead but at a $cost$

Ah,sometimes I worry about the "what if's", such as what if some tragedy happens at home and I've just pushed off for 8 days... On the other hand, one could say too much worry about what the rest of the world would do without me, is just a symptom of an inflated sense of self-importance.

Joe

So, I've always wondered about the expenses for a rescue like this. I assume that the rescued person is completely responsible, hopefully with health insurance that might help out costs?

I guess I'd be really second-guessing sending a rescue in for a bum leg type of injury (if it were myself hurt) knowing that it could cost thousands. Life-threatening is obviously a different story, and if it were someone else hurt I would let them make the call on less severe injury if they were an adult.

I understand rescue costs can run into tens of thousands $$$ However, I don't think it is a bill that gets paid most of the time. I think SPOT sells insurance for cheap and I bought it just in case. And agreed, it would take a serious serious problem before I hit the SOS button. I planned with my wife, if I ever send the Help (not SOS) button it means I'm okay, not life threatening, but can't get out. She is instructed to call some outfitters to see if somebody can come out and assist, rather than rescue personnel.

There was a rescue last year June the rescuers got a spot hit and approached our sight on Crooked Lake Friday Bay at night from canoes decked out in "swat" gear with big lights. I was sleeping but the guys in my party quickly informed them that the only other people in the bay were on the North Side. They must have found and stabilized the lady because the next day they came in with a float plane. The story goes from other campers we talked to that a very large woman slipped, fell and compound fractured her leg. Husband could not move her.

"So, I've always wondered about the expenses for a rescue like this. I assume that the rescued person is completely responsible, hopefully with health insurance that might help out costs?"

Something to consider. But would (why would), the cost of S&R be any different than if reported by other means? Does a S&R response cost more if requested by a satellite messaging system, than a 911 phone call, or an in person report/request to the local rescue services? What are the costs/responsibility, if a BWCA traveler is declared missing, does not return form a trip in a timely manner? Why would carrying such a device require rescue insurance, but not carrying such a device exempt others?
Is the insurance sold thru "SPOT" intended to avoid liability as a 3rd party (hired), communications firm?

FWIW, I do carry a satellite rescue communication device.

butthead

The way I understand it is, ANY time you need emergency assistance, be it just the local ambulance service or a full blown Coast Guard helo rescue, the victim can and will be held responsible for the cost of the rescue. The insurance that SPOT sells is just an extra service and moneymaker for them, I'm sure. There would be no cost or price difference based on notification method. I think the insurance was like $10 a year...

My health insurance does cover ambulance services but not sure (and wouldn't think) it would cover S&R costs.

quote joewildlife: "The way I understand it is, ANY time you need emergency assistance, be it just the local ambulance service or a full blown Coast Guard helo rescue, the victim can and will be held responsible for the cost of the rescue. The insurance that SPOT sells is just an extra service and moneymaker for them, I'm sure. There would be no cost or price difference based on notification method. I think the insurance was like $10 a year...


My health insurance does cover ambulance services but not sure (and wouldn't think) it would cover S&R costs."

ive always read that SAR is free in canada.

quote Richwon4: "There was a rescue last year June the rescuers got a spot hit and approached our sight on Crooked Lake Friday Bay at night from canoes decked out in "swat" gear with big lights. I was sleeping but the guys in my party quickly informed them that the only other people in the bay were on the North Side. They must have found and stabilized the lady because the next day they came in with a float plane. The story goes from other campers we talked to that a very large woman slipped, fell and compound fractured her leg. Husband could not move her. "

That was the same group that I mentioned a bit further up this thread. The "Swat" team was the emergency crew that paddled in.

quote backpackingZombie: "I used to have a SPOT, but for the amount of backpacking I do (once or twice a year) I just couldn't excuse the cost (it is a subscription service and then there's the insurance you can pay on top of that to cover the rescue cost). For $150 a year (auto-renewed) I couldn't convince myself to keep it. I know I'll look into them again, but I hope there are better options when I do. I've heard a lot of complaints regarding their customer service, but I didn't really run into trouble.


Every rescue story I've read about SPOT is dead-on though, and never negative ("I had to keep calm, but within hours there was a helicopter/plane at my exact position"). I also liked the idea of using it as a tracking mechanism, as noted above, so my wife could see I was still moving along at a "I'm not hurt" pace. However, they only keep your data for 14 days.


"

The high yearly cost for the service is why many people will rent them when they go out just a few times a year. I haven't had any problem with the service I get for our rental units & the company has always been very helpful when I have questions. I also pay for tracking because so many people like being able to use that. Spot keeps it on for 14 days if it is your own unit, I make a "Spot Adventure" and save it for any customer who wants to have it "forever". :-)

quote joewildlife: "Naw, the Connect is not capable of receiving messages.


The Delorme is way ahead but at a $cost$


Ah,sometimes I worry about the "what if's", such as what if some tragedy happens at home and I've just pushed off for 8 days... On the other hand, one could say too much worry about what the rest of the world would do without me, is just a symptom of an inflated sense of self-importance.


Joe
"

Sorry - of course you're right. Jaundiced because I've accepted that its too remote of event for me. Someone dies, several days doesn't matter to me. Were there a specific and immediate issue and I still went I'd rent a sat phone.

The two spotvrescues I read in the first person were in Canada and were not charged for. Considering one was a broken ankle and one a lost paddle.........

I always wonder what I would do if solo and lost a canoe. I'd use the third button and let people know I was OK but not able to move and hope I could hitch a ride out I guess.

The documentation from SPOT is pretty clear: the rescued individual is responsible for the bill, which can be 10k or 100k depending on the situation.

Luckily with the SPOT, and similar devices, they know exactly where you are and don't have to send out a 40 person team.

As for renting one, I'll certainly look into it. However, the insurance was pretty clear: it only covers the purchaser and not any other individual.

VoyageurNorth: "
We had one of our Spot trackers used to help a lady on Agnes Lake (north of Moose River entry) who broke her leg. It was at night and a paddling emergency crew took a 3 person canoe up to Agnes to help her & a plane came in the next morning to fly her out. The paddling crew paddled back out. :-)"


I was on Agnes Lake when the float plane landed. We watched the entire rescue from our campsite.

I remember that, you guys did good there & I'm sure the couple appreciated your help with providing the Spot you had rented.

"The documentation from SPOT is pretty clear: the rescued individual is responsible for the bill, which can be 10k or 100k depending on the situation."

Isn't it the same if someone requests a rescue but does not use a spot type device?

butthead

quote butthead: ""The documentation from SPOT is pretty clear: the rescued individual is responsible for the bill, which can be 10k or 100k depending on the situation."


Isn't it the same if someone requests a rescue but does not use a spot type device?


butthead"

Absolutely, if someone has a method of communication.

quote kanoes: "

quote joewildlife: "The way I understand it is, ANY time you need emergency assistance, be it just the local ambulance service or a full blown Coast Guard helo rescue, the victim can and will be held responsible for the cost of the rescue. The insurance that SPOT sells is just an extra service and moneymaker for them, I'm sure. There would be no cost or price difference based on notification method. I think the insurance was like $10 a year...



My health insurance does cover ambulance services but not sure (and wouldn't think) it would cover S&R costs."

ive always read that SAR is free in canada."

Nothing is free. Someone, somewhere has to cover the costs of a rescue.

This is how we got our friend out of the Quetico. We used our SAT phone to call the outfitter. They contacted the Canadian Govt (provincial park officials) to get permission to land a seaplane in the park for a medical emergency exit for broken ankle.. They (outfitter) then used a commercial seaplane outfit to fly in and out. The outfitter negotiated the cost for me and I can tell you it was about the same cost if you were to do a planned fly in trip.

We were dependent, however, on the schedule and availability of the seaplane outfit. We got lucky and they had time the next day. The outfitter was awesome and even met him at the dock where they landed to see if he needed assistance getting to the hospital. We flew another member of our party out with him to assist with that.

I am sure the cost would rise exponentially when emergency responders have to get involved. I was told that if we were in the BWCA we would have been on our own to get him out because it was not immediate life threatening. Not sure if that is true but it makes sense.

With respect to my friends insurance they would not pick up the cost of the ride out.

Google "who pays for search and rescue" and lots of articles. From one: Who ultimately ends up paying for search and rescue (SAR) operations depends on many factors. If it's the Coast Guard or the National Park Service (NPS), then they pick up the bill. Or rather, the taxpaying citizens of the United States do. Neither agency has a policy for charging for SAR missions."

Some agencies have started a policy that charges the rescued if they were negligent but hat seems hard to judge.

It seems outside of the US and Canada and wherever the Coast Guard does not go that the rescued is likely to be charged for the service.

Just a bit more knitting on this thread.
Do you check for insurance coverage, responsibility assessment, if you came upon a car crash, or do you call 911/summon help?
When an elderly man went missing up on the Gunflint trail did the authorities assess responsibility/insurance coverage before beginning S&R?
Emergency services cost the same irregardless of the method of notification, so why does the concept of insurance and cost only come up in discussions of PLB/Spot type devices?

I will not treat the uses of an emergency call frivolously, but will put life and rescue ahead of cost consideration. Thanks for the consideration and discussion.
Bill, as an early adopter of carrying a sat emergency beacon I have been all over S&R stories and discussions in a variety of media. Even somewhat familiar with the International Treaties covering S&R policies.

Stay safe out there, and have a Happy New Year!

butthead

butthead - I think we agree. I'm sure the Spot documentation is an attempt to leave no doubt - or litigation room - that no such work is included in the agreement with Spot. Kind of like the warning on a new fan belt - stop motor before installing.

An article in Backpacker suggested that the GEOS insurance with the Spot plan was a good discount but checking at GEOS I don't think it makes a difference - $17.95/yr for an individual. I'm sure there is fine print . LOts of exclusions, must have an approved device, will not reimburse, $100k/yr but $50k/incident, and so on. And don't expect help in Afghanistan, among several places. Canoe in Afghanistan

My conclusion as long as I'm in BWCA or Q, not necessary. I would have to look harder if going other places.

Thanks for your patience with me, all of you!
As an early adopter I have taken A LOT of flack about carrying a PLB, attitudes have changed! Still a lot of false assumptions are hard to get rid of.
One thing we can agree on, is a hope to never need to push the SOS button!

butthead

Here is a good Article regarding the SPOT rescue insurance and the difference between the SPOT and DeLorme InReach.

I am seriously considering buying the InReach. So I'm curious what subscription plan you use Butthead.

My brother was lost hunting N. of Duluth. St.Louis County Volunteer
Rescue Squad spent 8 hrs in finding him. Since it was land based, no charge. They received some handsome donations that year.

Sorry Andy, I carry an ACR ResQLink PLB, a dedicated rescue sat beacon. No interest from my family on communication during a trip. So I chose a PLB, 10 times the transmission signal power, direct link to S&R dispatch, fully sealed more robust unit. Biggest drawback, it ONLY sends an emergency S&R signal.
Tripped with users of Spot and InReach communicators and have done research on both. Spot uses GlobalStar sat system and is one way text communication, Spot to ground station service, to personal distribution.
InReach uses Iridium sat system and offers 2 way text communication and their own similar message handling.
"Currently SPOT and DeLorme own the lion’s share of the satellite messenger market. Their key comparative claims:

SPOT DeLorme
Messaging One-way Two-way
Character Limit 41 160
Message Confirmation No Yes
Satellite Network Globalstar Iridium
Min. Tracking Interval 2 minutes 10 minutes
Price Less More expensive
Subscription Fees Yes Yes
This list offers only a basic comparison. Each device offers its own set of additional features as well. See REI.com product pages for details." quote from referanced REI article.

You might try Kiporby, or BeaV for info, I believe they use InReach.
I do have quite a bit of experience with Delorme and several of their products, and have no problem recommending the InReach communicator.

butthead

quote caribouluvr: "So, I've always wondered about the expenses for a rescue like this. I assume that the rescued person is completely responsible, hopefully with health insurance that might help out costs?"

The answer to this varies by locale and situation. SAR personnel are universally STRONGLY opposed to making the rescued person pay for it, because that leads to people putting off calling for help until the situation is much worse than when they first new something was wrong, drastically lowering the chances for a successful rescue and often putting SAR personnel in greater danger in the process. As noted by billconnor, under the jurisdiction of the NPS and USFS there is no charge. Of course, once the government float plane people hand you off to the private ambulance people, then the bills start coming and the hospital might bankrupt you anyway, so try to have your emergencies on the Canadian side. :P

NASAR Position Statement

So messages from Spot and Inreach - at least SOS calls for search and rescue - are both processed through GEOS. An emergency signal from a PLB - using the COSPAS-SARSAT network - is processed at different places - Mission Control Centers in each country that participates. Coast Guard (I think) and Air Force in the US, Canadian Mission Control Centre in Canada, or a local agency in the country of the origin of the signal.

As far as I can tell, they are both basically call centers that notify the presumably correct agency or S&R team based on where the emergency call is from.

While I understand that the Spot and Inreach may not be as strong of signal as PLBs or may have regions with poor or no service, they all seem more than adequate in all parts of the US and Canada. They all eventually summon the same governmental search and rescue authorities, at least initially. I can't tell but GEOS suggests they might arrange for a private rescue if the governmental agency was not up to it for whatever region.

I think when making recommendations it would be very helpful what regions you have in mind to be rescued in. I personally have no plans to use my Spot in back country other than BWCAW and Ontario provincial Parks. I only carry it for my wife's benefit besides. And I especially don't want anyone contacting me for the little time I get away from business each year - they'll live and I'm not that important.

One of the Spot trackers that we own is a personal unit. I have a special policy that covers road assistance, emergency evac and even a special policy attached to it where if something happens when we are out of country (like Jamaica & the Caymans this winter), we can choose to get flown back to the States.

It costs us about an extra $200 a year but I feel it is worth it. I don't have to have the Spot with us out of the country to get that service and I know I prefer the Spot in the car in the winter but if I can call them, having the Spot is not necessary there either.

Have been following this thread the last 24 hrs. Lots of informative input here.
Pretty much made my decision not to renew SPOT in June. Sell the hockey puck.
Delorme InReach w/seasonal subscription for me. Apart from emergency rescue, I prefer brief text exchanges in non-emergency situations.
joewildlife wrote, " I planned with my wife, if I ever send the Help (not SOS) button it means I'm okay, not life threatening, but can't get out. She is instructed to call some outfitters to see if somebody can come out and assist, rather than rescue personnel. "
Being a soloist, I'd want some clarity on who/when/if someone is responding to any 'stranded' situation I may find myself dealing with some day.
Edited 1/2/2014: Reviews are mixed on Delorme InReach units. Prudent to wait awhile longer for a switchover. Let'em work out the bugs or perhaps introduce new model. SPOT has been dependable. Still will wish for texting capabilities independent of predefined messages.

quote butthead: "I carry an ACR ResQLink PLB, a dedicated rescue sat beacon. No interest from my family on communication during a trip. So I chose a PLB, 10 times the transmission signal power, direct link to S&R dispatch, fully sealed more robust unit. Biggest drawback, it ONLY sends an emergency S&R signal."

Is there a subscription with that or do you just buy the unit and you're good to go? That sounds like something I would be interested in if it's literally just something I buy, toss in my pack and don't have to pay anything to a company on a yearly basis.

quote mjmkjun: "
Have been following this thread the last 24 hrs. Lots of informative input here.
Pretty much made my decision not to renew SPOT in June. Sell the hockey puck.
Delorme InReach w/seasonal subscription for me. Apart from emergency rescue, I prefer brief text exchanges in non-emergency situations.
joewildlife wrote, " I planned with my wife, if I ever send the Help (not SOS) button it means I'm okay, not life threatening, but can't get out. She is instructed to call some outfitters to see if somebody can come out and assist, rather than rescue personnel. "
Being a soloist, I'd want some clarity on who/when/if someone is responding to any 'stranded' situation I may find myself dealing with some day. Also, prevents from incurring serious expenses if someone back home over reacts to a predetermined (vague) message (SPOT). "

There is a new Spot device which connects your cell phone with your Spot & can send messages. I think they may have one to receive them as well but not sure. for rental purposes, we stay with the original tracker but for someone who wants their own & messaging, the new one may be good.

The in reach most basic plan is $120/yr but wouldn't permit a message a day for two weeks. Next plan is $300/yr. For that you can have a spot phone plan with 120 minutes and the global phone is $500 vs $300 for the in reach. With spot at $120 and 100/yr - lots of decisions.

I can't tell but think the 120 minutes translates to 480 text messages on the spot global phone and most basic plan. Not to mention in a crisis you can talk to someone.

So many choices and so much info to go over, good luck!

"Is there a subscription with that or do you just buy the unit and you're good to go?"

No subscription, free 2 year registration with NOAA required. 5 year battery life before replacement service (spec. replace at 50% of min. 10 year life).

butthead

PS: REI on beacon differences and Rocky Mountain Rescue Group on PLB
and Spot subscriptions and InReach subscriptions bh

quote butthead: ""Is there a subscription with that or do you just buy the unit and you're good to go?"


No subscription, free 2 year registration with NOAA required. 5 year battery life before replacement service (spec. replace at 50% of min. 10 year life).


butthead

PS: REI on beacon differences and Rocky Mountain Rescue Group on PLB
and Spot subscriptions and InReach subscriptions bh"

thanks for the links!

Thanks butthead. I'll absolutely look into those.