BWCA Canoe Rudder Anyone? Boundary Waters Listening Point


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Listening Point - General Discussion

Canoe Rudder Anyone?

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LuvMyBell

07/09/2012 08:57AM

Has anyone ever modified their canoe to add a lightweight aluminum rudder system?

My wife and I have rudders on our Ocean kayaks and love them. They aid in steering and also function much like a foot bar for stability and comfort while paddling.

I've been thinking about trying to install one on my Bell Magic. I think Wenonah actually makes a solo canoe with a rudder but I just couldn't switch canoes.

Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated. Pictures showing the installed rudder would be nice too. Thanks

Paddle Faster....I hear banjo music

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apugarcia

07/09/2012 09:29AM

I really like it when my bow paddler does all the work and I rudder from the stern, does that count?

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LuvMyBell

07/09/2012 09:36AM

quote apugarcia: "I really like it when my bow paddler does all the work and I rudder from the stern, does that count?"

Absolutely. Does your bow paddler hire out?

Paddle Faster....I hear banjo music

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billconner

07/09/2012 10:33AM

I know it's an option for the Souris River Tranquility. The ranger at Dawson Creek talked about her Tranquility with the rudder and how fast she could go even in rough water. Obviously kayak paddle. I'd like to try one but suspect because I'm not in a hurry and like simplicity, I'd not get one.

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LuvMyBell

07/09/2012 10:47AM

quote BillConner01: "I know it's an option for the Souris River Tranquility. The ranger at Dawson Creek talked about her Tranquility with the rudder and how fast she could go even in rough water. Obviously kayak paddle. I'd like to try one but suspect because I'm not in a hurry and like simplicity, I'd not get one."

I'm usually not in a hurry using my kayak w/rudder system on my local streams. The thing I really like is you can drift along and steer the boat (as long as there is a current or wind) and have your hands free to fish.

I've never taken my kayak to the BWCA but I can see the benefits of having a rudder on a canoe to aid in getting across the big open-water lakes when the wind is up.

Paddle Faster....I hear banjo music

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Jeriatric

07/09/2012 12:11PM

I encountered a Wenonah Fusion in a local store, even before I knew they existed. I remember thinking, at first glance, what a nifty solo that it would be for trolling.
However, because I am the kind of person who's TVs (and microwaves, computers, and cars) die a natural death before the are replaced, I would not consider selling my 2-year old (back then) Pack at 2/3 the price I had paid for it only to turn around and spend double that amount for a new, different canoe. My ingrained thriftiness would not even allow me to entertain such a thought.

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adam

Moderator

07/09/2012 02:52PM

Technically I have been told a rudder on a kayak or canoe in the BWCA is not within the rules on non-mechanized lakes. You would need to ask the FS yourself for clarity.

Adam

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WhiteWolf

07/09/2012 03:19PM

quote adam: "Technically I have been told a rudder on a kayak or canoe in the BWCA is not within the rules on non-mechanized lakes. You would need to ask the FS yourself for clarity.

Adam"

WOW. and a sail is not a "rudder"?
runners on sleds in the winter are as much the same as a rudder on a watercraft. Unreal.

"What good fortune for governments that the people do not think." — Adolf Hitler

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nctry

07/09/2012 03:34PM

quote WhiteWolf: "quote adam: "Technically I have been told a rudder on a kayak or canoe in the BWCA is not within the rules on non-mechanized lakes. You would need to ask the FS yourself for clarity.

Adam"

WOW. and a sail is not a "rudder"?
runners on sleds in the winter are as much the same as a rudder on a watercraft. Unreal.
"

A sail is not legal in the BW

Nctry Ben

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LuvMyBell

07/09/2012 04:16PM

Thanks Adam. I will contact the USFWS regarding the rudder. That thought never even occurred to me.

Regarding the sail, technically the published rules say "sailboats" are not permitted. Is a canoe with a windpaddle or similar product a sailboat even though it doesn't have a rudder, mast or freeboard to keep it from turning over?

Legal or not I wouldn't use a sail but I would consider a rudder if it's legal. I'll. Also ask the USFWS for a clarification on the windpaddle product and report back.

Paddle Faster....I hear banjo music

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andym

07/09/2012 05:02PM

I just want to clarify a technical point about sailing because I've seen it wrong twice on the forum recently.

Centerboards, daggerboards, and leeboards are devices that let a sailboat move forward instead of in the direction the wind is pushing. They do not keep a sailboat from turning over. In fact, sometimes you pull them out, or partially out, of the water to keep the boat from capsizing. A weighted keel will both keep a boat moving forward and will keep it from capsizing but I'm pretty sure no one will be portaging a boat with a weighted keel.

Freeboard is the height of the side of a boat above the water.

Personally, I think as soon as a boat can move upwind based on the wind it is a sailboat because now you can always get where you want to go without paddling. A windpaddle gets a lot of the way there because it allows you to go up to 90 degrees from the wind (according to their web site). So, I am sort of torn on them but wouldn't use one as I think it is too close to being a sailboat.

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LuvMyBell

07/09/2012 07:12PM

Thanks for the lesson andym. It's obvious I'm no sailor.....lol

I didn't even know the name or purpose of the board that hangs down under water.

Paddle Faster....I hear banjo music

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LuvMyBell

07/12/2012 01:02PM

I just received an email reply from the U.S. Forest Service regarding the use of rudders on canoes or kayaks in the BWCA. I also asked about the wind paddle product as well.

The quick answer is that rudders are permitted and the wind paddle is not. No surprised there.

For those that want to read the actual response I got back I've pasted it below. It actually goes into the thought process of how the decisions were made.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi there. Thank you for contacting us and asking these questions. We appreciate folks wanting to do the right thing and with so many different products on the market for watercraft, I'm sure it gets confusing and websites like BWCA.com are just blogs and often misunderstand rules and regs on a variety of topics. We have to think through the logic ourselves when new or unusual devices are questioned. See below:

1. Kayak wind paddle - Unfortunately your sail is not permitted in any designated wilderness in the national preservation system unless provided for in a wilderness area's individual legislation. Our reasoning on retrofitted kayak or canoe sails is the same for snow kites and sail-skiing. It comes down to how "mechanical transport" is defined in the Forest Service manual by authorities from the 1964 Wilderness Act and the 1978 Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness Act. We are prohibited in allowing the use of your suggested kayak paddle sail due to prior legislation and policy.

"Forest Service Manual 2320.5., 3. Mechanical Transport is defined by any contrivance for moving people or material in or over land, water, or air, having moving parts, that provides a mechanical advantage to the user, and that is powered by a living or nonliving power source. This includes, but is not limited to, sailboats, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game carriers, carts, and wagons. It does not include wheelchairs when used as necessary medical appliances. It also does not include skis, snowshoes, rafts, canoes, sleds, travois, or similar primitive devices without moving parts."

2. Factory installed rudder system for kayak - Although the rudder is a mechanical advantage of sorts and it is used as part of your transport in wilderness, it's not actually moving you forward. You, your kayak and your paddle are doing that. The rudder just guides your direction. When you look at the manual definition above, you'll see how the examples of illegal contrivances all have one thing in common - they propel you or your stuff in some fashion. The rudder doesn't. That's how this Forest interprets the kayak rudder. At least you can leave the sail home...the rudder isn't a possibility. Not on my kayak anyway. Positive side - you'll get more exercise without the sail!

Again, thank you for contacting the Forest Service. When visitors like you ask questions, it helps clarify the rules more for everyone.

Ann Schwaller
Wilderness Specialist
Superior National Forest
Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness
Duluth, MN
218.626.4325

Paddle Faster....I hear banjo music

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BeaV

07/12/2012 03:01PM

My Kruger Sea Wind that I purchased this past spring came with a rudder. I love it! No more issues now when I'm solo paddling and the wind wants to blow. Doesn't matter if the wind wants to hit me broadside, or if the boat is empty, or how I trim... just put the rudder down and away I go in a straight line. No correction strokes or having to keep the bow into the gale.

Without a rudder, I used to sit and switch paddle (switching about every 3 strokes). With a rudder, I only switch sides when I begin feeling tired (hundreds of strokes).

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andym

07/12/2012 05:15PM

It's great having a clear reply from the Forest Service. Their definition of a sailboat is broader than mine and looks like it includes any sort of sail that moves the boat even just downwind. So much for the theory on here that using a tarp and some sticks is ok because it would still be something that "propel you or your stuff in some fashion."

You can probably still get away with sticking your arms out to catch the wind. Actually, I got a nice downwind run just using my body on a stand up paddle board recently. Paddling back was a bit harder.

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markaroberts

07/12/2012 06:19PM

"Technically I have been told a rudder on a kayak or canoe in the BWCA is not within the rules on non-mechanized lakes. You would need to ask the FS yourself for clarity."

Every outfitter in Ely rents kayaks with rudders (i.e. Storm GT)

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LuvMyBell

07/12/2012 06:44PM

quote markaroberts: ""Technically I have been told a rudder on a kayak or canoe in the BWCA is not within the rules on non-mechanized lakes. You would need to ask the FS yourself for clarity."

Every outfitter in Ely rents kayaks with rudders (i.e. Storm GT)"

Here is the official answer from the horses mouth.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Factory installed rudder system for kayak - Although the rudder is a mechanical advantage of sorts and it is used as part of your transport in wilderness, it's not actually moving you forward. You, your kayak and your paddle are doing that. The rudder just guides your direction. When you look at the manual definition above, you'll see how the examples of illegal contrivances all have one thing in common - they propel you or your stuff in some fashion. The rudder doesn't. That's how this Forest interprets the kayak rudder. At least you can leave the sail home...the rudder isn't a possibility. Not on my kayak anyway. Positive side - you'll get more exercise without the sail!

Again, thank you for contacting the Forest Service. When visitors like you ask questions, it helps clarify the rules more for everyone.

Ann Schwaller
Wilderness Specialist
Superior National Forest
Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness
Duluth, MN
218.626.4325

Paddle Faster....I hear banjo music

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billconner

07/13/2012 08:13AM

You could try calling a sail and air rudder. That is no different than saying a canoe with a sail is not a sail boat. Tongue in cheel here.

I think the USFS statement makes sense and is how I read the rules.

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markaroberts

07/13/2012 08:18AM

Now that is out of the way. . .back to the OP question . . .

I have a Wenonah Voyager. . .the 34 lb kevlar one. ..when I bought it, it all ready had a rudder system on it. . .the aluminum rudder with the aluminum foot pedals attached to the foot brace. Can be up or down and can be taken out with simply removing a pin.

The rudder is not necessary on crossing short distances or paddling rivers. It is a BIG help however on paddling lakes with wind. Particularly on solo boats.

It is the same principle as on kayaks. I don't usually use my rudder on my Necky Looksha IV (17 1/2 feet), but it comes in really handy in wind or current.

A rudder on a kayak or canoe is not for turning. . .but for holding the boat on a steady course.

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LuvMyBell

07/13/2012 10:04AM

quote markaroberts: "A rudder on a kayak or canoe is not for turning. . .but for holding the boat on a steady course. "

I'm not sure I understand the subtle difference you are making with your statement. To hold the boat on a steady course you use the rudder to make slight adjustments by 'turning' the boat to correct your course.

I've had a rudder system on my kayaks for years and use them a lot on the twisty rivers of the Missouri Ozarks. The rudder helps me steer around and through the bends of the river. In fact I find that I can usually use the rudder, completely hands-free, as long as their is a good steady current.

As you say they are a great help keeping a steady course when the wind is blowing too.

I haven't installed a rudder on any of my canoes yet, but I am contemplating putting one of my magic for BWCA use. I can see a value using one on the bigger lakes in the wind. I can also see a value while drift fishing, keeping my hands paddle free to concentrate on the fishing pole.

I'm still in the design/engineering phase of this project. I do not want to make any kind of permanent mount on my magic (No holes drilled).

Paddle Faster....I hear banjo music

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markaroberts

07/13/2012 10:16AM

I don't use the rudder on my kayaks for steering. I can turn my 17 1/2 foot Necky much tighter using a brace turn. The smaller Sonoma (13 1/2 foot) I can pivot in place. The kayak rudder is primarily not for small rivers but rather for helping a kayak track straight when on open water or moving in basically a straight line. Rudders on kayaks are very inefficient for tight quarters, manuevering around obstacles, etc. However, when you want to make some time and are moving in a basically straight direction, they allow you to keep the boat going straight and just power with the strokes, not needing correcting strokes.

Same is true of the canoe. A 17 1/2 foot canoe like the Voyager does not turn tight with a rudder. . .however, can turn tight by putting it up on side and bracing. The Voyager (and most canoes) are much more impacted by wind, however, and that is where the rudder really comes into play.

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LuvMyBell

07/13/2012 10:24AM

quote markaroberts: "I don't use the rudder on my kayaks for steering. I can turn my 17 1/2 foot Necky much tighter using a brace turn. The smaller Sonoma (13 1/2 foot) I can pivot in place. The kayak rudder is primarily not for small rivers but rather for helping a kayak track straight when on open water or moving in basically a straight line. Rudders on kayaks are very inefficient for tight quarters, manuevering around obstacles, etc. However, when you want to make some time and are moving in a basically straight direction, they allow you to keep the boat going straight and just power with the strokes, not needing correcting strokes.

Same is true of the canoe. A 17 1/2 foot canoe like the Voyager does not turn tight with a rudder. . .however, can turn tight by putting it up on side and bracing. The Voyager (and most canoes) are much more impacted by wind, however, and that is where the rudder really comes into play."

Thanks for that information. You are obviously more of a technical paddler that I am.

For me the kayak and canoe are just a means of getting me from point A to B, or to a spot on the water to fish.

Paddle Faster....I hear banjo music

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