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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum Listening Point - General Discussion Stowing your gear in your canoe. |
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06/28/2012 05:58AM (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Just saw an article about stowing your gear while paddling. I've always been on the fence about tying down/lashing gear in. Seems like if you do tip, it would make for a ton of release problems and yet it makes sense not to lose your life support systems either.
So far, I've just placed things in strategically for balance and ballast and maybe unwisely ignored the lashing issue.
Thoughts?
Stowing gear article
So far, I've just placed things in strategically for balance and ballast and maybe unwisely ignored the lashing issue.
Thoughts?
Stowing gear article
We all have to believe in something. I believe I'll go paddle.
06/28/2012 06:52AM
The only things I secure in my canoe are those things that will sink if I capsized, such as my fishing pole. All my gear and food are in waterproof packs or barrels which will float.
If I were to capsize, I want all the gear to get free from the canoe. My reasoning is that the canoe will be easier to flip back over. The canoe itself, full of water is heavy enough, but to try it with an additional 50+ pounds just doesn't make sense to me.
This assumes there are 2 or more canoes in your group so the 2nd canoe can be used to assist with righting the capsized canoe. If I were on a solo trip I might be inclined to secure my gear. There is no way to flip a canoe and empty out the water in the middle of a lake by yourself. In that case, you just need to swim for the nearest shore, towing your swapped canoe behind you. I'd think you'd want your gear with the canoe in that case.
If I were to capsize, I want all the gear to get free from the canoe. My reasoning is that the canoe will be easier to flip back over. The canoe itself, full of water is heavy enough, but to try it with an additional 50+ pounds just doesn't make sense to me.
This assumes there are 2 or more canoes in your group so the 2nd canoe can be used to assist with righting the capsized canoe. If I were on a solo trip I might be inclined to secure my gear. There is no way to flip a canoe and empty out the water in the middle of a lake by yourself. In that case, you just need to swim for the nearest shore, towing your swapped canoe behind you. I'd think you'd want your gear with the canoe in that case.
Free people are not equal. Equal people are not free.
06/28/2012 06:55AM
I don't.
The concern you mention is always a potential risk. But, in most cases when fully loaded, we are paddling close to shore looking for campsites.
It would be something I would consider if paddling across larger expanses of cold water. (Saganaga for example) But, usually we just get a tow. Partially for that reason.
I do always keep a small dich kit attached to the canoe.
The concern you mention is always a potential risk. But, in most cases when fully loaded, we are paddling close to shore looking for campsites.
It would be something I would consider if paddling across larger expanses of cold water. (Saganaga for example) But, usually we just get a tow. Partially for that reason.
I do always keep a small dich kit attached to the canoe.
06/28/2012 07:12AM
I never have either, Jerry, but have considered it. There have been several past threads concerning this issue that you can probably find using the site search on the left. Many issues were discussed - tethering and entanglement, the additional time spent loading and unloading at portages, how fast and far wind-driven packs can travel away from you, and the issue of righting a canoe with and without packs. As to the last issue, some have suggested that since packs float they weigh less than the amount of water they would displace in the canoe and act somewhat like floatation. Of course, like most such discussions, most of us lack any actual experience, while others have very limited experience.
06/28/2012 07:12AM
I never tie in, even in big water. The only thing that is secure is my rods, spare paddle, and dry bag that I keep my camera in.
My ditch kit is attached to my pfd, and I always wear it. I only remove my ditch kit from my pfd, when I walk back in the woods... then it's on my belt. Things that have happened in the past, are the reason I try to keep it on my person while traveling, and when I walk away from camp any distance.
My ditch kit is attached to my pfd, and I always wear it. I only remove my ditch kit from my pfd, when I walk back in the woods... then it's on my belt. Things that have happened in the past, are the reason I try to keep it on my person while traveling, and when I walk away from camp any distance.
"I am haunted by waters"~Norman Maclean "A River Runs Through It"
06/28/2012 07:22AM
quote LuvMyBell: "There is no way to flip a canoe and empty out the water in the middle of a lake by yourself."
There is, indeed, a way to flip a canoe by yourself (also, two people can flip a canoe without assistance from another canoe).
Here's how:
1) Take a deep breath and slip under the overturned canoe (there will be air to breathe under the canoe).
2) Lift one edge of the canoe just enough to break the vacuum seal of the water. Get the other edge up and almost level with the water line.
3) Using a large scissors kick to push yourself up, simultaneously lift the canoe and flip.
This can be done solo or, in tandem with a partner. It's worth practicing.
(BTW, this cannot be done if heavy gear is lashed securely within the canoe.)
"I go because it irons out the wrinkles in my soul" -- Sigurd Olson
06/28/2012 08:01AM
Looks like I might be in the minority, but I usually lash my stuff down, especially the extra paddle. I figure that if I flip, I would just paddle into shore pulling all the stuff behind.
Just last night I was reading some of Sig Olsen's book The Lonely Land and they only lashed their packs down when running rapids. Why only on the rapids, I don't know.
Whether or not you lash your packs, ALWAYS lash an extra paddle to the canoe. More often then not, when you flip, the canoe goes one way and the paddle goes the other way.
And like Mooseplumbs, I always have my ditch kit on me, in a pocket of my PFD.
"It is more important to live for the possibilities that lie ahead than to die in despair over what has been lost." -Barry Lopez
06/28/2012 08:42AM
The only thing lashed down and it is very important,is my fanny pack with granola bars,matches,tape and billfold. Once in a while I will have it attached to me while paddling.Usually take it off while canoeing.
I think you have to have options available if something happens,like certain items like in your life vest etc.
I think you have to have options available if something happens,like certain items like in your life vest etc.
06/28/2012 09:05AM
Good idea for river travel with a stronger current. If you happen to dump, your stuff may be gone like ripple’s paddle. I don’t and wouldn’t lash the gear for a trip in the BW. I don’t think it is necessary and would add burden.
06/28/2012 09:30AM
It really depends. Hopping across small lakes and portages to crossing large water. Solo or in a group. I never lash anything in but will run a strap with a buckle on it around something. Makes it very easy to detach if needed and keeps things together. I always wear a very sharp knife that I can cut lose anything if needed...say an anchor if you are fishing.
I only have one experience of tipping and it was in cold water while fishing. Only had fishing gear in the canoe. Despite both of us going in and the canoe filling with water we lost no gear...it all stayed in the canoe. It was a short swim to an island but the wind was not in our favor. Any time spent gathering up floating gear would have been wasted time and energy and pushed us further from the island. A float across the lake would have been deadly. (an hour in cold water)
Some important takeaways? It happened really fast. In this case there was not much time to make a decision and act. Know how your canoe reacts when capsized. Kevlar is different than a heavy aluminum. Part of every trip (water temps permitting) is to practice for this possibility. Have you ever swam with a water filled canoe in tow? Much harder than it might sound.
I only have one experience of tipping and it was in cold water while fishing. Only had fishing gear in the canoe. Despite both of us going in and the canoe filling with water we lost no gear...it all stayed in the canoe. It was a short swim to an island but the wind was not in our favor. Any time spent gathering up floating gear would have been wasted time and energy and pushed us further from the island. A float across the lake would have been deadly. (an hour in cold water)
Some important takeaways? It happened really fast. In this case there was not much time to make a decision and act. Know how your canoe reacts when capsized. Kevlar is different than a heavy aluminum. Part of every trip (water temps permitting) is to practice for this possibility. Have you ever swam with a water filled canoe in tow? Much harder than it might sound.
The best thing one can do when it's raining is to let it rain. Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
06/28/2012 10:41AM
I don't tie my stuff down either. I just can't imagine dealing with an overturned canoe full of gear tied down inside it. Talk about HEAVY.
I could see maybe lashing your packs together but not tie them to the canoe. That way if you dump you can right your canoe and your packs won't be scattering all over the place. Also locating one big pile of floating packs is easier than finding them all individually. If I were to do that I'd probably get a length of rope and attach a caribiner to each end. You could then quickly clip one carabiner to a pack, run it through the straps of the other packs and the clip it back to the first pack. Probably take you 30 seconds to do it.
I could see maybe lashing your packs together but not tie them to the canoe. That way if you dump you can right your canoe and your packs won't be scattering all over the place. Also locating one big pile of floating packs is easier than finding them all individually. If I were to do that I'd probably get a length of rope and attach a caribiner to each end. You could then quickly clip one carabiner to a pack, run it through the straps of the other packs and the clip it back to the first pack. Probably take you 30 seconds to do it.
06/28/2012 10:59AM
I don't "lash or tie" my gear into the canoe, but I do run the waist straps around a thwart and secure the packs to the canoe that way. It takes about 2 seconds to unclip it at the portage, or if I were to dump. I figure IF I were to dump, I unclip all the packs, get them away from canoe and then clip all packs together and leave them be, theyre dry bags and will float for a while. In that time I get canoe righted or to shore, dry out and then go retreive packs.
I do secure my rods in the canoe, and tackle boxes go in gear bag on travel days.
I do secure my rods in the canoe, and tackle boxes go in gear bag on travel days.
Tight Lines
06/28/2012 12:02PM
quote mooseplums: "I never tie in, even in big water. The only thing that is secure is my rods, spare paddle, and dry bag that I keep my camera in.
My ditch kit is attached to my pfd, and I always wear it.
curious on what is all in the "ditch kit"?
06/28/2012 12:03PM
quote RTM: "quote mooseplums: "I never tie in, even in big water. The only thing that is secure is my rods, spare paddle, and dry bag that I keep my camera in.
My ditch kit is attached to my pfd, and I always wear it.
curious what is all in the "ditch kit"?
06/28/2012 12:09PM
quote RTM: "quote RTM: "quote mooseplums: "I never tie in, even in big water. The only thing that is secure is my rods, spare paddle, and dry bag that I keep my camera in.
My ditch kit is attached to my pfd, and I always wear it.
curious what is all in the "ditch kit"?"
My ditch kit includes:
Whistle
compass
firesteel striker
firestarters
space blanket
emergency poncho
small amount of duct tape
energy bar
first aid items
small knife
small flashlight
all this is in a small bright yellow Sea to Summit dry sack.
"I am haunted by waters"~Norman Maclean "A River Runs Through It"
06/28/2012 01:01PM
quote OBX2Kayak: "quote LuvMyBell: "There is no way to flip a canoe and empty out the water in the middle of a lake by yourself."
There is, indeed, a way to flip a canoe by yourself (also, two people can flip a canoe without assistance from another canoe).
Here's how:
1) Take a deep breath and slip under the overturned canoe (there will be air to breathe under the canoe).
2) Lift one edge of the canoe just enough to break the vacuum seal of the water. Get the other edge up and almost level with the water line.
3) Using a large scissors kick to push yourself up, simultaneously lift the canoe and flip.
This can be done solo or, in tandem with a partner. It's worth practicing.
(BTW, this cannot be done if heavy gear is lashed securely within the canoe.)"
What is described above is known as the Capistrano Flip self rescue technique. This maneuver could not be done with gear lashed in the canoe. I am sure it could be done solo as well, given the lighter weight of a solo boat.
06/28/2012 01:29PM
having the packs secured in the canoe actually makes a swamped canoe more manageable. the packs displace water and add extra flotation. i have probably lashed packs in the BWCA only several times in my experience, typically the big border lakes in heavy winds. i always lash my packs when running whitewater. d rings mounted on the hull make this a very simple operation, nothing to get tangled up in either.
06/28/2012 06:13PM
50 mph gusts of wind can put your gear all over the lake. By the time you get re situated chasing down your gear may be a problem, even a danger depending on where it lands up.
When we tipped the loss was minimal and our bags did float, luckily to the island we were heading for.
It's a toss up when your under duress, panicked or just freaked out about what happened, your gear is not the most important thing to think about. Your life is.
To tie down or not is your choice don't really think you can be right or wrong on this one.
Just make sure you have your pfd on. Be safe. Make good decisions.
JB
When we tipped the loss was minimal and our bags did float, luckily to the island we were heading for.
It's a toss up when your under duress, panicked or just freaked out about what happened, your gear is not the most important thing to think about. Your life is.
To tie down or not is your choice don't really think you can be right or wrong on this one.
Just make sure you have your pfd on. Be safe. Make good decisions.
JB
You can't explain the obvious to the ignorant.
06/28/2012 06:18PM
I use the "leash" method and have short pieces of cord with carabiners attached to the canoe so I can just clip my packs in. The packs are at the least neutrally buoyant, and most of them will float so I don't see how they could hurt the situation. I also only do summer tripping for the most part so cold water isn't much of an issue for me. In the event of a capsize if I were unable to flip the canoe upright I would likely just swim the canoe to shore.
"Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit."
06/29/2012 08:24PM
quote AndySG: "quote OBX2Kayak: "quote LuvMyBell: "There is no way to flip a canoe and empty out the water in the middle of a lake by yourself."
There is, indeed, a way to flip a canoe by yourself (also, two people can flip a canoe without assistance from another canoe)."
What is described above is known as the Capistrano Flip self rescue technique. This maneuver could not be done with gear lashed in the canoe. I am sure it could be done solo as well, given the lighter weight of a solo boat."
Thanks. WOW! I never knew it was called the "Capistrano Flip." We were taught this in Boy Scouts. I never knew it had a fancy name.
"I go because it irons out the wrinkles in my soul" -- Sigurd Olson
06/29/2012 08:51PM
quote Goby: "I don't "lash or tie" my gear into the canoe, but I do run the waist straps around a thwart and secure the packs to the canoe that way. It takes about 2 seconds to unclip it at the portage, or if I were to dump. I figure IF I were to dump, I unclip all the packs, get them away from canoe and then clip all packs together and leave them be, theyre dry bags and will float for a while. In that time I get canoe righted or to shore, dry out and then go retreive packs.
I do secure my rods in the canoe, and tackle boxes go in gear bag on travel days."
+1
06/29/2012 11:07PM
quote OBX2Kayak: "quote AndySG: "quote OBX2Kayak: "quote LuvMyBell: "There is no way to flip a canoe and empty out the water in the middle of a lake by yourself."
There is, indeed, a way to flip a canoe by yourself (also, two people can flip a canoe without assistance from another canoe)."
What is described above is known as the Capistrano Flip self rescue technique. This maneuver could not be done with gear lashed in the canoe. I am sure it could be done solo as well, given the lighter weight of a solo boat."
Thanks. WOW! I never knew it was called the "Capistrano Flip." We were taught this in Boy Scouts. I never knew it had a fancy name."
I think that the next time I take the canoe out for a paddle, I am going to intentionally tip over to give this a try. Maybe having done it will help to keep calm in the event it happens unintentionally.
I use BDB to strap in the fishing rods, spare paddle. The seat pack is obviously strapped in to the canoe as well. All other gear and packs are not tied in.
06/30/2012 08:02AM
This is a great thread and after reading it a couple times, I still don't know whether to tie or not. I do, but wonder if I shouldn't. I have two big flotation bags tied in my canoe, which might change things.
I will paddle eternal, Kevlar and carbon.
06/30/2012 09:56AM
I am reading "Fishing and Hunting by Canoe" by Bob Cary. He recommends lashing the packs in the canoe to keep them from floating away in the event of a capsize.
When doing so he made sure that the line had quick release knots to free the packs if the canoe begins to get dashed upon the rocks.
I always thought it would be a good idea to have a loose line tied to the packs but not the canoe so if they floated away they would at least all end up in one place.
When doing so he made sure that the line had quick release knots to free the packs if the canoe begins to get dashed upon the rocks.
I always thought it would be a good idea to have a loose line tied to the packs but not the canoe so if they floated away they would at least all end up in one place.
07/03/2012 02:58PM
I have only tied down my gear twice when traveling in big winds/waves and I was only this dumb twice. Other than that I do tie down my camera (in water proof bag) and fishing gear.
I wish I were, I wish I might, I wish I was in the BWCA tonite!
07/03/2012 09:49PM
If it can sink, it will. Tie that stuff in. Its really bad idea to assume because you never have dumped, you never will. And the person who loses is you. Not the others yakking on the board.
Being an eternal beginner I always do a "what if" on any given day..Where are my outs? What is my plan in case of dump?. I and we have dumped several times...and so glad we practiced dumping and self rescue and gear retrieval. We have capsized on Lake Superior where I perfected the theory of "If it can sink it will". There is a chair at the mouth of the Dog River down there.
BWCA type camping finds everything in two packs that float and solo detachable yoke that floats too. Agreed..its a PITA untying on frequent portages.
Being an eternal beginner I always do a "what if" on any given day..Where are my outs? What is my plan in case of dump?. I and we have dumped several times...and so glad we practiced dumping and self rescue and gear retrieval. We have capsized on Lake Superior where I perfected the theory of "If it can sink it will". There is a chair at the mouth of the Dog River down there.
BWCA type camping finds everything in two packs that float and solo detachable yoke that floats too. Agreed..its a PITA untying on frequent portages.
07/03/2012 09:58PM
quote nctry: "when I dumped in May, I had the loose things like extra paddle and portage yoke tied in. My packs actually stayed in the canoe and I lost nothing. I like the idea of things staying close together. good ideas here."
I wonder what Bernice thought as she was dog paddling in circles wondering what had just happened and what shore to swim to. Glad you both were OK and didn't lose anything.
07/04/2012 06:12AM
quote missmolly: "This is a great thread and after reading it a couple times, I still don't know whether to tie or not. I do, but wonder if I shouldn't. I have two big flotation bags tied in my canoe, which might change things."
Pretty much the way it is for me, except I don't and wonder if I should.
07/04/2012 03:03PM
I have never tied but there are plenty of thoughts to chew on in this thread. I have never tested the results but I have always packed with the idea that the loaded packs should float.
The business of life is the acquisition of memories. In the end that's all there is. ___Mr Carson (Downton Abby)
07/04/2012 06:16PM
Good question JW! One I think about asking when my one paddling partner is lashing everything down! He tends to be want to be prepared for the worst case scenario. I've always wondered about flipping your canoe back over with the extra weight. Assuming you stay somewhat close to shore in adverse conditions, it may pay off in the long run.
Without the bad times, the good times wouldn't seem so good.
07/04/2012 06:36PM
At times in big wind and waves, we have clipped our packs to the thwarts using side compression straps, the hip belt, or a shoulder strap of the pack. The packs aren't "lashed down" but they are attached and can't float away, and can also be released easily.
I didn't use to do this because it I thought it would make it harder to right and empty the canoe if we capsized. But then I was advised that if conditions are rough enough to capsize the canoe, you are not going to get it floating on the water any way (Capistrano or not). You need to get the canoe and your gear to shore. And having your gear blow off, or having to spend time gathering it before trying to get to shore, would be a huge problem.
In normal weather conditions we just put the packs in the canoe. But I always lash down the extra paddle (it stays lashed in the canoe portaging too, so this makes things easier), and I also use a BDB to attach my yoke when using the solo canoe. Those are things you REALLY don't want to lose.
One last thing - as someone else observed, the article OneMatch linked to shows people shooting whitewater. Under those conditions, lashing in gear seems even more advisable. You are more likely to swamp or capsize. And if you gear leaves the canoe, it's more likely to be pulled way downstream by the current. Typical BWCA paddling is different, but in very windy and wavy conditions, somewhat similar considerations apply.
I didn't use to do this because it I thought it would make it harder to right and empty the canoe if we capsized. But then I was advised that if conditions are rough enough to capsize the canoe, you are not going to get it floating on the water any way (Capistrano or not). You need to get the canoe and your gear to shore. And having your gear blow off, or having to spend time gathering it before trying to get to shore, would be a huge problem.
In normal weather conditions we just put the packs in the canoe. But I always lash down the extra paddle (it stays lashed in the canoe portaging too, so this makes things easier), and I also use a BDB to attach my yoke when using the solo canoe. Those are things you REALLY don't want to lose.
One last thing - as someone else observed, the article OneMatch linked to shows people shooting whitewater. Under those conditions, lashing in gear seems even more advisable. You are more likely to swamp or capsize. And if you gear leaves the canoe, it's more likely to be pulled way downstream by the current. Typical BWCA paddling is different, but in very windy and wavy conditions, somewhat similar considerations apply.
07/05/2012 04:58AM
We use the giant twisty ties to leash (not lash) our gear in, in the event of a dump, a quick twist and its free. By using this way the gear can get free of the canoe but still be attached. There was a link in the indispensable gear thread on these. We take about 20 between us. All kinds of uses.
I can explain this to you, but I cant understand it for you.....
07/05/2012 09:27AM
quote LuvMyBell: "The only things I secure in my canoe are those things that will sink if I capsized, such as my fishing pole. All my gear and food are in waterproof packs or barrels which will float.
If I were to capsize, I want all the gear to get free from the canoe. My reasoning is that the canoe will be easier to flip back over. The canoe itself, full of water is heavy enough, but to try it with an additional 50+ pounds just doesn't make sense to me.
This assumes there are 2 or more canoes in your group so the 2nd canoe can be used to assist with righting the capsized canoe. If I were on a solo trip I might be inclined to secure my gear. There is no way to flip a canoe and empty out the water in the middle of a lake by yourself. In that case, you just need to swim for the nearest shore, towing your swapped canoe behind you. I'd think you'd want your gear with the canoe in that case."
I guess it is the old Scout in me, but I was always told to get back in a boat or canoe once it is righted, even if swamped. Once inside, you can bail, or simply work the canoe slowly toward shore. Doing that is definitely safer than trying to tow a canoe while swimming.
“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” ~J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit
07/05/2012 09:39AM
quote HikingStick:
I guess it is the old Scout in me, but I was always told to get back in a boat or canoe once it is righted, even if swamped. Once inside, you can bail, or simply work the canoe slowly toward shore. Doing that is definitely safer than trying to tow a canoe while swimming."
That is tough in a solo.. when you are solo.. It is best to practice capsize and find what method works best for you.
07/05/2012 09:58AM
quote yellowcanoe: "quote HikingStick:
I guess it is the old Scout in me, but I was always told to get back in a boat or canoe once it is righted, even if swamped. Once inside, you can bail, or simply work the canoe slowly toward shore. Doing that is definitely safer than trying to tow a canoe while swimming."
That is tough in a solo.. when you are solo.. It is best to practice capsize and find what method works best for you."
I have to agree. I have tried this in practice with no gear and it is hard to get in and just sit stable on a calm day...let alone paddle it on a windy day which is probably why you went in anyhow.
The best thing one can do when it's raining is to let it rain. Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
07/05/2012 10:04AM
Curiously I have never gone in in high winds. I have getting in and out many many times. And also paying non attention. With winds I am all paying attention with loose hips to roll with the waves.
Winds would add the challenge of catching the boat. You in the water are not as affected by the wind as much as a boat partially exposed to the wind.
I have done capsizes practicing FreeStyle and can attest that a loose boat is hard to catch. For that reason I always wear my PFD. You cant be sure solo that you will be able to get a hold of your boat to get a PFD laying in the bottom.
We are taught in Search and Rescue that wind affects boats and bodies differently.
Winds would add the challenge of catching the boat. You in the water are not as affected by the wind as much as a boat partially exposed to the wind.
I have done capsizes practicing FreeStyle and can attest that a loose boat is hard to catch. For that reason I always wear my PFD. You cant be sure solo that you will be able to get a hold of your boat to get a PFD laying in the bottom.
We are taught in Search and Rescue that wind affects boats and bodies differently.
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