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Gunflint Northwoods Outfitters
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 Boundary Waters Quetico Forum Listening Point - General Discussion Scout groups Reply
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View BWCA Photo and Trip Report Contest Page
Poll: What is your favorite month in the BWCA/Q?
| Previous Messages: | |
| Author | Message Text |
| LGraubner |
02/06/2008 11:57AM Duck Call, check out the NPS web site on the Buffalo Nat'l River. It has lots of good info including links to outfitters with shuttle services. I also highly recommend the book "The Buffalo River Country" by Kenneth L. Smith, published by the Ozark Society Foundation as the best guidebook for this river. If you go, get the waterproof Nat'l Geo maps. I have also heard great things about the Jack Forks and Current Rivers in Southern Missouri. |
| duckcall |
02/06/2008 09:01AM LGraubner, thanks for the tip. This is the reason I like this forum, even though people disagree on some things, there always seems to be someone out there willing to help. I will research that trip. |
| LGraubner |
02/06/2008 08:53AM Duck Call, The Buffalo Nat'l River in Northern Arkansas is much better than the White River. The White River is cold and dam-fed. Lots of trout, but not as good for camping. The Buffalo Nat'l River is free-flowing and I have done the 60 mile stretch from Gilbert to the White River twice on 2 week-long trips. Very relaxing with lots of gravel bars and sandbars to camp on. |
| guitar1 |
02/05/2008 10:01PM We have run into scouts from the local Moose Lake lodge and girls from local summer camps. With these we have been nothing, but impressed. especially the all girl groups. That is how I fell in love with Seliga canoes, those kids handled those fine old canoes with a very respectful skill. the folks running the Ely area camps should feel proud of the fine work they are doing. |
| deltaducky |
02/05/2008 09:21PM WOW, some interesting insight to the scouts. We are bringing our boys up this summer. We are requiring all but the oldest scouts to have a parent or guardian along partly to get rid of some of the problems mentioned. But, I will make sure we are not in class A uniform so we are not assaulted by some angry scout haters. I can tell you that I have gone to large jamborees with my son and seen many of the behavior that some of your dislike, I dislike it too. But, I think more attention should be paid to the adult leader, or LACK there of when it comes to behavior. I myself did not belong to the scouts as a kid, but have always enjoyed the outdoors. My son on the other hand would sit inside and play gameboy without the scouts and he is turning out to be a nice young man as a result of scouting, so cut them some slack. |
| duckcall |
02/03/2008 09:38PM I have made three trips to the bwca and one trip on the Superior Hiking Trail. All of these trips have been through scouting. Our two trips in the winter have been some of the best experiences for our scouts. Our summer trip was great, and helped immensely by this board. I researched the trip for months and all of you helped make our trip a success. I am a wildlife professional, and I acquired my love for the outdoors through scouts. My biggest disappointment last summer was the sheer number of people. The crowds were not all scouts. The area is crowded! I hope to take our next trip to the current or white rivers in southern MO and northern AR. I hope you all think back to what started your appreciation for the outdoors. I am an assistant scoutmaster because I want to pay back to the organization that helped me so much. I also want to thank everyone on this board because your help may have lit the fire under the next generation to fight to save the area we all love. |
| guitar1 |
02/03/2008 02:38AM I mentioned the father son church and scout groups had over run us on portages. I will clarify. The time with a group of father son scout troop the problem was that they did not have the skills they needed to paddle and they all attempted side by side landings. Nose first, while we were just about to shove off. I had one more small pack to load and the nearest on coming canoe rammed mine while as picking up my last pack. I have seen some that were playing bumper canoe at landings because they simply didn't have the ability to control their boats in the wind. Although they were not behaving offensive in any way. they did welcome paddling instructions and that is always fun for me. the time I got POd was when a church group with twelve canoes clobbered us on the Burke Creek North Bay portage. they completely cut me off by stacking canoes over every foot of the landing. The leader told me to get out of the way, I was standing in crotch deep water preparing get my boat out of the water. It turned out that they had three of their food packs in one canoe and they had every intention of finding a campsite that they could all stay on. I had to drag my canoe up the creek to the next take out, it was all that we had left was the pack I was wearing and my canoe. I am not saying that father son groups should not go on canoe trips. I am saying that they need to educate themselves and prepare. When a local group went, headed by a friend of mine, I offered to give canoe lessons and tell them what they needed to know. He said that it would be better if they struggled and knew nothing. They had a terrible trip, fought with each other, made other people angry, had a bully problem, punched a hole in a rented canoe, and had injuries that ruined the trip for a couple kids. They did split up. the other half took lessons caught fish, they knew how to paddle and had a great time. |
| Boppa |
02/01/2008 09:56AM Scouting brought me on my 1ST canoe tripping overnight over 40 years ago. It opened up an activity I have enjoyed immensely ever since. I owe a "giving" Scoutmaster a lot. When I encounter groups of young people, I often see wide enthusiastic eyes, smiles and more energy than I can remember and usually more noise than I like. Hopefully, it is the start of the same passion for the outdoors that a few were willing to show to me, with there time and knowledge. Whenever I rarely encounter something not acceptable I still possess a stare (36 years of teaching 9TH grade and presently 4 active grandkids) an a remark that explains a better expectation/choice - hope it keeps working. Now, if anyone is expecting a list of some of the antics we pulled over 40 years ago on our trips, you have tied your horse at the wrong post. LOL Boppa |
| marc bates |
02/01/2008 08:31AM Cedarboy, I agree. I always judge every group individually. There are always good with the bad. It is up tp the adults to set the example. I do hope I continue to meet many more groups of young men on these trips. They are the future of keeping the parks up and running. I wish every kid had the chance to experience something like the BWCA. That is why we need to make sure they are trained right, so that future groups have that chance. |
| oldgentleman |
02/01/2008 05:21AM A group of 12 year old boys will probably be obnoxious wherever they are. When I take my 4 grandsons anywhere almost the same things could be said of them, except the uniforms. Of course, in that case the adult leader (me) tends to be a little too tolerant. |
| Cedarboy |
01/31/2008 10:22PM Adult leadership IS EVERYTHING in a troop. My Grandfather was a leader(SilverBeaver), my father was a leader(Eagle), I am now leader(Eagle) , I have 2 boys in Cubs and hope to help them achieve tier goals. I was fortunate to have a great troop growing up. It cant be stressed enough, these boys look up to their leaders to be good examples for them. I apologize for any bad experience anyone has had with a scout group because of BAD leadership. Don't through out the baby with the bathwater, its a tough world out there, kids today need groups like Scouting and the YMCA or music or sports,church. The more involved WE can be as parents, grandparents or just good volunteers the better off our youth will be! CB |
| kanoes |
01/31/2008 10:10PM great point white. we all need to realize that. |
| whiteh20 |
01/31/2008 10:00PM Seems like we are kinda tough on the scouts?? How many of us developed a love of the outdoors due to scouts?? I for one enjoy seeing groups of scouts. Maybe it will be one of these young men who develop a love for the outdoors that will last a life time? Maybe one of the scouts we meet on a portage will go on and fight to protect the wild areas we all enjoy? I for one can tolerate some boyish behavior if that means the young person will become a life long advocate of the BWCA. I took two of my old scout masters (73 and 77) on a trip to the BWCA this fall as kind of a payback for starting me down this path. We had a great time and I hope the next time any of us comes across a group of scouts or other youth group we remember that someone took the time to take us into the wilds at one time or another. Just my 2 cents. |
| eagle93 |
01/31/2008 09:13PM In the 20+ years I've been a scouter, I've had many positions. Assistant scoutmaster, scoutmaster, troop committee chair, council training committee chair, camping committee member are some. I feel that I have a good feel for what scouts are about and their methods. Scouts are still about outdoor skills, service to others, duty to God. My main job now is training adult leaders. The hardest part is trying to pound proper skills and training into some "adults." Some just don't get it. Most of the leaders are willing and want training so the troop will function better. The scout troops I've met in the BW have been fine. The scoutmasters that I know are responsible people who do what they can to provide boys with the opportunity to be outdoors, have fun, and learn. Please remember that all scouters are volunteers and many don't even have boys of scout age. As in all groups of people there are some bad apples. Don't judge all by some. |
| marc bates |
01/30/2008 08:50PM I have done half my trips with groups of teenagers. 8 is my normal group. I teach the boys what to do in the BWCA and I expect that to be followed. They have not disappointed me. It does come done to leadership. Based on what the Boy Scouts stand for I am just surprised that I have read as many bad encounters as I have. I have had many good experiences with them, but I have had more questionable ones than I expected. It seems like the adults may need more screening or training. As said earlier, boys will be boys if they are not taught correctly. |
| TomT |
01/30/2008 03:21PM Very well said BB. My only encounter with scouts in the Bdub was when I found a paddle on a portage. I canoed through a couple more lakes then saw this big group camped so I asked if they were missing a paddle. The scout leader was really appreciative. I remember him giving me some tea bags for my trouble. It was great tea btw. All the boys I saw were really well behaved and they all thanked me. |
| 1313 |
01/30/2008 02:39PM Whenever there is a group that can be singled out and labeled they are at risk of being unfairly maligned for the sins of those who they are lumped in with in other people's minds. That doesn't mean everyone who can be lumped in a group behaves the same way. For example if I find a tangled pile of monofilament line at a campsite, I can be sure that a fisherman left it. If I come to a site, and there are little bits of TP all over the place by the tent areas, its likely that women were camped there. Dog hair everywhere---dog owners. That doesn't mean I think all fisherman, women, and dog lovers are slobs. Just some of them. Same thing with the scouts. The world is a better place when we don't make generalizations about entire groups of people based on the actions of individuals. |
| Bannock |
01/30/2008 01:51PM I've seen lots of scout troops in the BWCA. The only one I took particular note of was the one I mentioned in the other post with the leader freaking out on the portage landing. I figure boys will be boys, especially a bunch of them that are over-excited. I figure responsibility rests squarely on the shoulders of the leaders. They need to lead and they need to teach and they need to model behaviors and they need to ensure safety and then, on top of it all, they need to let the boys have a good time while they try to keep their sanity. Not an easy task, nor one that everyone can do. My hat is off to the good ones. I do smile occasionally when I see car camping, jamboree styles applied to the BWCA. But that's OK. Sometimes the leaders need to rely on their experiences and how they were taught. Sometimes that's good and other times it is not. Certainly if you learned to cut your own tent poles, you need to modify that behavior when in the BWCA. Carrying a Coleman, two burner, suitcase stove with wooden chuckbox stand is not something I would choose to do (and will make me smile), but if that is part of troop's camping rig it's OK with me. I was a scout and it was a great experience. I certainly had fun and learned a lot, but it was diciplined, too. I wanted to get my son into scouting, but IMHO our local troop was not a good one. At least they weren't modeling behaviors I wanted my son to emulate. Leaders wore uniforms that were messy and dirty and pants were torn blue jeans. But the worse was the screaming. Kids were encouraged to scream and the loudest rewarded. Little dicipline or respect. I didn't like it and neither did my son. We left after the fourth troop meeting. IMHO, the troop is a reflection of its leadership. |
| Georgiaboy |
01/30/2008 12:32PM LGrauber I don't live far from you if you are in Chattanooga. I do a lot of caving in the area. Raccoon Mtn. is fun. Are you overnighting in the cave? I take my Alternative school students to a cave near there every spring. It is a 35' rappel into a "hole in the ground with a climb back out on the rope. They love it and do great! Said the one caver to the other caver "what hole did you crawl out of?" |
| LGraubner |
01/30/2008 12:15PM I am taking a group of 10 Scouts on a caving trip this weekend to Raccoon Mountain in Chattanooga, TN. Some of the boys have never been camping are are excited to get into a new environment. Some leave quickly because they just don't like the environment. Some go through Eagle Scout and are very respectful and love the outdoors and make great paddling / camp partners. I enjoy the time with my boys most of all and being an example to others, some of whom don't have dads or other positive role models. |
| Trygve |
01/30/2008 08:53AM And the simple fact that 7 or 8 boys are always going to cause havoc, regardless. If 7 or 8 of me went into the woods together when I was that age it would make the Basswood 6 look like the Church Choir. |
| Benutzer |
01/30/2008 08:01AM I agree that it's a leadership issue. But I also wonder how much scouting has changed over time. When I was in scouting 30-odd years ago, there was a very heavy emphasis placed on 'outdoor ethics' as well as skills. I know our troop had outstanding leadership, but I suspect that this emphasis came from a regional or national level as well. Has anyone here been involved in scouting long enough to know if or how much things have changed over the years? I must say that I wish I'd stayed more involved with them, because in looking back I realize (same as GeorgiaBoy) how much of what I learned in scouting stayed with me and influenced the rest of my life, and it would have been good to pass that on to the next generation of scouts. |
| bloomingtonsteve |
01/30/2008 07:58AM I joined a Minneapolis scout troop in 1973. From 1979 to 2000 I was active as an assistant scoutmaster. I am now a supporting alumni and am on the Board of Directors. It is certainly not a requirement of the BSA to wear uniforms on any outings. However, when they are worn, they are worn with pride. Those children are, for the most part, proud to wear and show off their uniform and any awards that may be attached to the shirt. Adult leaders wear their uniform for much the same reason. But they also wear it to set an example. The SNL sketch with Alec Baldwin was a kick in the mouth to Scouting. That's a stereotype that has been the bane of scouting for many, many years. There's a huge difference between being a homosexual and being a pedophile. Isn't it odd that Girl Scouting doesn't get the same rap?! As far as behavior of scout groups in the BWCAW I would say this...the adult leaders and junior staff must set the example. They need to relay to the kids reasonable expectations. If kids don't know what's expected of them then you can't really blame them for how they act. |
| Georgiaboy |
01/30/2008 07:27AM I agree with those that say it is about who the leaders are. Poor leadership poor group. It starts back at their meetings in their home town. If the leaders don't have the scouts respect it is not going to change in the wilderness. It also has to do with the respect the leaders have for the wilderness and their scouts. I have seen both types of groups and I avoid those that don't get it. Scouting is a great organization in fact my son is an Eagle Scout. The problem is not scouting it is those people who don't respect what scouting is about and the wilderness that we all love. My advice (which is cheap and usually ignored :)) is try to keep an open mind when seeing a scout group. For many of these boys/young men the trip to the BWCA will be a life changing experience. I think back to my own scouting days and much of my camp craft skills and love of the outdoors came from my experiences as a scout with good leaders who taught us respect and responsibility. |
| sammy |
01/29/2008 09:41PM I've seen some very good scout groups and some VERY bad groups. One group that sticks in my mind was camped on the island portage at Lower Basswood Falls. They had a fire going in a fire ring that they put together and the scouts were running all over the island. They claimed that they couldn't find a site, but it was apparent that they wanted to camp next to the falls and since all the close sites were taken they just made their own site. My sister went up to them and "talked" to the leader. I have never seen her so mad. She did point out that we had just left a site right next to the falls and suggested that they move there as fast as they could. Unfortunately it is the bad groups that get the attention. |
| wetcanoedog |
01/29/2008 09:35PM the Scouts are an easy hit..you have fathers trying to keep a pack of hopped up boys in tow..some may never have been anywhere near the woods before..it's a learning experence..i did it from 58 to 65--the last couple as a canoe tripper for a Scout camp..they get better as they go along and in time become "old scouts"-- |
| overthehill |
01/29/2008 06:21PM Ah, givem' a break! Sometimes with a little outside instruction they usually show respect. Many don't know what to expect, nor how crowded it can be. As previously mentioned, some leaders are ignorant as well. Hopefully they all will learn as they are our future. Maybe there should be emphasis on portaging at outfitter's orientation. I was there as a scout in 1972, back in 90-93 and then last year. Each trip it seemed like traffic had doubled each time. Think of your local traffic light. |
| Trygve |
01/29/2008 05:48PM My disdain for large groups makes up about 2/3 of my dislike for scout groups, the uniforms and children make up the other 3rd. Actually, the adults in uniform is what really creeps me out. That SNL skit with Alec Baldwin is all I can think of. |
| oldgentleman |
01/29/2008 05:39PM I was an assistant scout leader when my son's were in scouts. You could see a tremendous difference in troops at camporees. I think some scout leaders were just not knowledgeable themselves and so were ineffective. Some had ego problems but most were making a real effort to do a good job for the boys. It's a tremendous amount of work if done well, but can be very rewarding too. |
| timatkn |
01/29/2008 05:26PM Yes I have run into both good and bad scout troops. It is always the leaders fault good or bad IMHO. I think scouts are great, they are more noticable because they usually have the max size limit allowed that is probably why you see comments---same goes for church groups. The other problem is some of these big groups are actually 2-3 groups. we ran into a scout group 2 years ago at lower Basswood falls. They had 15 people. A group of 9 and a group of 6---7 canoes. They camped at different sites but they traveled together paddling and portaging. The leaders were poor example blatantly violating the rules and teaching that to their kids. Tim |
| LGraubner |
01/29/2008 05:05PM On the recent thread about portage etiquette, it seems many people have had negative experiences with Scout groups. As a father of two Scouts and outdoor leader for our local troop, I think this all depends on how well the boys are taught to respect the wilderness, how to comport themselves and how to act around others. We can never take all of the exhuberance out of a group of boys (nor should we even try to), but that doesn't mean we have to condone rude behavior or bad trail manners. What I have found is that most Scouts will behave great, if given the right role model. Other experiences? Good or bad? |
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